Is it feasible to remove the skimmer? Could it solve the decades-long problem of nutrient accumulation?

[Belgian Anthias]

I am now feeding twice a day a combo of flakes and pellets and I am feeding nori every 2 or 3 days.

I am trying to avoid dosing any sort of nitrate or phosphate, but I realize that I may have to at some point.

What is the protein content of the pellets or and flakes? What would be the benifit of dosing nitrate or phosphate? Can't this be managed by the content of the feed?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I think Purigen only removes organics before breaking down. Not sure it removes toxins but I’ll reach out to Seachem. They always answer the phone but don’t always divulge everything it does if they haven’t tested for it.

Please post their response? They said to me that it removes organic compounds bound to nitrogen. Bio toxins contain nitrogen. But I have no information about what is removed exactly and how. Can't find independed test reports or get info about the kind of polymers which are used. The fact it can not be regenerated using salts is used by Seachem as a sign of quality. Is it?
Other polymers such as OrganX claim it can remove all organic compounds. The polymer can be regenerated using salts.

 

[GARRIGA]

Please post their response? They said to me that it removes organic compounds bound to nitrogen. Bio toxins contain nitrogen. But I have no information about what is removed exactly and how. Can't find independed test reports or get info about the kind of polymers which are used. The fact it can not be regenerated using salts is used by Seachem as a sign of quality. Is it?
Other polymers such as OrganX claim it can remove all organic compounds. The polymer can be regenerated using salts.

But are organic compounds the only items we are concerned with? This is not an area I'm familiar with. Googled OrganX and I'm seeing biomedical applications. Is there a product that can be used with marine tanks?

Getting info on details out of Seachem is often futile. Phone response seems to mimic the website Q&A with sometimes more clarity so I'm not expecting much. Most of their products are proprietary formulas rarely divulging the ingredients used or exactly everything they do.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Other polymers such as OrganX claim it can remove all organic compounds. The polymer can be regenerated using salts.

What material or company is that?

If anyone claims that, they are almost certainly wrong. No polymer is going to bind very hydrophilic compounds from seawater. Methanol, for example. And if the polymer is charged, it will not bind molecules of the same charge.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

But are organic compounds the only items we are concerned with? This is not an area I'm familiar with. Googled OrganX and I'm seeing biomedical applications. Is there a product that can be used with marine tanks?

Getting info on details out of Seachem is often futile. Phone response seems to mimic the website Q&A with sometimes more clarity so I'm not expecting much. Most of their products are proprietary formulas rarely divulging the ingredients used or exactly everything they do.

Sorry it is ORGAN-EX Orca Aquacultural Laboratories
32b cnr Atar & Artouste Roads,
Impala Park,
Boksburg, 1459
South Africa
Phone: +27 81 313 8792
Email : [email protected]

I have contacted the Manufacturer and the importer EU and BeNeLux. in 2019. They only can provide a safety test rapport about the product, nothing else ( 2019) And of coarse a video to show the difference pre and aft, information available on the website.

 

[bigdrew]

What is the protein content of the pellets or and flakes? What would be the benifit of dosing nitrate or phosphate? Can't this be managed by the content of the feed?

That’s a good question. I’ll check the contents of what I’m feeding. You are correct though in that my goal is to manage it through feedings as opposed to anything else. I’m trying to give it some time to play out…

 

[GARRIGA]

That’s a good question. I’ll check the contents of what I’m feeding. You are correct though in that my goal is to manage it through feedings as opposed to anything else. I’m trying to give it some time to play out…

My approach is through decomposition. Starts with quality feed. Ultimately it will be released into the system including calcium and magnesium through mineralization. In the end. What you put in determines what you get from it. At least that’s my understanding.

 

[bigdrew]

My approach is through decomposition. Starts with quality feed. Ultimately it will be released into the system including calcium and magnesium through mineralization. In the end. What you put in determines what you get from it. At least that’s my understanding.

What food are you using? I assume it’s working? I’m using a marine flake and a pellet. I’ll send it over once I get home.

 

[GARRIGA]

What food are you using? I assume it’s working? I’m using a marine flake and a pellet. I’ll send it over once I get home.

Hikari Marine and Sustainable Aquatics Dry Hatchery Diet. Mix in some old Tetra flakes I have but also add TDO. Also using up a packet of Hikari Fancy Guppy. The hatchery diet is crack for them so is TDO. Could just do those. I feed 3 times a day. Nutrients stay low but haven't sent out an ICP test yet. Plus mineralization takes a very long time depending on the make up of the food provided.

 

[Reeffarmer]

Finding porous rock is becoming more difficult. Was hoping to start my display with Pukani and that's no longer available. That and Fiji likely best sourced from hobbyist tearing down their tanks. Which might come with their own issues best approached with muriatic acid and drying then seeded with bacteria in a bottle.

The original spirit of the Berlin Method likely no longer supported without additional filtration that not only replaces the nitrification provided by that porous rock but deeper inside the denitrification. At that point, having a skimmer can still be utilized yet I believe that making that filter more effective can likely eliminate it. Pumice is porous and abundant. What I'm using to test my theory but have used biochem stars in the 90s which are also porous and that worked well but tank was only up for a year and fish only therefore inconclusive but showed promising results. No water changes.

For those forced to use base rock and continuing with skimmers than perhaps equipped with a DC pump will allow them to increase it's effectiveness overtime and meet the hire demands later. Having to size the skimmer was one of the reasons I fell out of favor with them although back then we didn't have DC pumps. Didn't have collection containers for the skimmate either. At least I never saw them offered. A lot has changed but I'm still staying away and taking a more natural approach. At least until it's proven that the skimmer actually removes that which can be handled naturally and not just anecdotally but with science to back it. Perhaps it has and I've just not seen it or comprehended what I read. Latter happens.

You may check this out.

 

[GARRIGA]

You may check this out.

That artificial Pukani looks amazing but it's pricey and he does mention porous but to what extent. Would be interesting to see exactly how light it is and if a 60 pound box of this has the same amount by space as a box of real Pukani. Just don't see other than the very well off buying this option unless they must have that look and aren't looking for filtration via other means. Pumice can be found for $30 per cubic foot. Organized correctly and it too can provide the denitrification that live rock used to. For a 60 cube I'd buy it assuming I can get away with 30 pounds. It is very cool looking. Gotta give it that.

Not a fan of branch rock other than as a standalone with fish that wil go in and out of the branches. Never appreciated branch rock and corals on it other than shrooms and the like.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Is it feasible to remove the skimmer? Could it solve the decades-long problem of nutrient accumulation?​

Water is cleared of inorganic nutrients by new growth. Growth can be harvested. All nutrients needed for natural growth must sufficiently be present to maintain the growth rate needed to clear the water. The main growth rate regulating factor is the carbon content of the feed. What happens if part of the nutrients present in quality food is released as TOC and DOC and are constantly exported but most nitrogen present in the food ( protein) is released as ammonia and is not exported? Organic carbon , the main natural growth regulating nutrient, is constantly removed together with all other essentials present in exported DOC and TOC. Nitrogen in the balanced feed, released as ammonia must be reduced by autotrophs, not needing organic carbon, preferable as fast as possible. Ammonia not used is ( hopefully) transformed into safely stored usable nitrogen, nitrate. Nitrate is normally used to restore the balance between consumers, reducers and producers, a balance maintained by heterotrophic ( reducers) and photo-autotrophic ( producers) growth . If growth of both, the reducers and producers, is limited due to mechanical or chemical export of DOC, how all inorganic compounds released by the consumers can be reused to maintain the nutrient balance?

If one comes to the conclusion that a skimmer contributes to the accumulation of nitrogen, hopefully in the form of nitrate, and one wants to tackle the problem at the root, then one should not look for a replacement for the skimmer, such as GAC, or towards a better solution for filtering out dissolved organic substances in the form of suitable polymers. It would only perpetuate or exacerbate the problem. All nitrogen not bound to organic material is not included.

Then one must look back to the basics, effective remineralization, to remove DOC and TOC, producing the nutrients needed for new growth, followed by managing new growth clearing the water of all nutrients. New growth can be harvested in relation to the feed and be reused as a balanced food source, to maintain the bioload within the limits of the installed carrying capacity and close the nutrient and energy cycle as intended by nature.

A low DOC content is essential for healthy corals.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If one comes to the conclusion that a skimmer contributes to the accumulation of nitrogen, hopefully in the form of nitrate, and one wants to tackle the problem at the root, then one should not look for a replacement for the skimmer,

I don't think anyone has come to that conclusions except you.

I still have no idea why you think a skimmer will increase nitrate.

Seriously, is there anyone else reading this thread that accepts the rationale for skimmers to increase nitrate? I don't mean it as a joke or criticism I'm trying to understand what, if anything, I am missing in this whole discussion.

I've asked a few times and get no satisfying explanation.

 

[Frogspon]

What would be the best way to remove the skim layer build up at the top of the water if you remove the skimmer?

 

[GARRIGA]

What would be the best way to remove the skim layer build up at the top of the water if you remove the skimmer?

Natural decomposition via nitrification and denitrification. That’s my approach. Has been since the 80s and I started selling skimmers commercially in the early 90s. That was short lived however.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What would be the best way to remove the skim layer build up at the top of the water if you remove the skimmer?

An overflow that went to a sump will likely drive it under and off the surface, even without a skimmer.

 

[Reeffarmer]

That artificial Pukani looks amazing but it's pricey and he does mention porous but to what extent. Would be interesting to see exactly how light it is and if a 60 pound box of this has the same amount by space as a box of real Pukani. Just don't see other than the very well off buying this option unless they must have that look and aren't looking for filtration via other means. Pumice can be found for $30 per cubic foot. Organized correctly and it too can provide the denitrification that live rock used to. For a 60 cube I'd buy it assuming I can get away with 30 pounds. It is very cool looking. Gotta give it that.

Not a fan of branch rock other than as a standalone with fish that wil go in and out of the branches. Never appreciated branch rock and corals on it other than shrooms and the like.

that stuff seems like it is ~60-70% of the weight of most artificial reef rock, the structure of this rock does seem more spacious than natural Pukani. Fish and critters have more playground in this rock.

 

[paulgriffin971]

Try not having a skimmer and also not doing water changes. See how long that idea works out.

 

[GARRIGA]

that stuff seems like it is ~60-70% of the weight of most artificial reef rock, the structure of this rock does seem more spacious than natural Pukani. Fish and critters have more playground in this rock.

Need to find a piece and test it. Not that hard to estimate porosity. Curious how many cubic feet is a 30 pound box. Lighter the the rock. Larger that box should be. Do like the fact it seems easier to stack and designed for that. Pukani required a chisel to modify. Which also wasted rock unless one wanted extra rubble to stick in the sump or scattered about the substrate.

Have to admit. Been hoping for a solution as this. Didn’t see harvesting lasting forever although it did get cut off earlier than expected. If this is porous then that’s a major plus

 

[GARRIGA]

Try not having a skimmer and also not doing water changes. See how long that idea works out.

Worked for me in the 80/90s. Been running that way with new build since September. No corals yet but parameters are there for their liking.

Others have stated they are doing this. Other than inability to export certain toxins there isn’t a biological/chemical reason why it isn’t feasible and we do t know what those toxins are yet might have others means to remove them. Latter what I’m seeking now and not something I’ve considered in the past and should have.