Is Marine Pure effective at reducing nitrates? We learn some valuable lessons. | BRStv Investigates

[Velcro]

So I could toss a copper pipe in my aquarium and protective layers of organics, inorganic precipitates, bacteria growth etc could over time prevent the release of copper into my tank? That seems unlikely, but okay.....

I don’t think much of anything would grow on pure copper.

 

[Scott Campbell]

I don’t think much of anything would grow on pure copper.

Which is kind of my point - soluble aluminum is pretty bad stuff. Why would all these organics grow on something releasing soluble aluminum?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Which is kind of my point - soluble aluminum is pretty bad stuff. Why would all these organics grow on something releasing soluble aluminum?

lol

It's isn't that bad. Most organics are already dead and don't care, but alumina is not prevented from colonizaton by bacteria

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0922338X9290282Y

Porous alumina beads with controlled pores were prepared for the immobilization of lactic acid bacteria to improve soy sauce productivity, and the alumina support with the highest lactic acid productivity was used for repeated-batch fermentation. Immobilized lactic acid bacteria could be used 5 times in repeated-batch fermentation, where higher productivities were obtained than that in conventional fermentation.

Even activated alumina used for water treatment:

http://articles.extension.org/pages/31568/drinking-water-treatment-activated-alumina

Non-coliform bacteria can grow on the activated alumina medium, but coliform bacteria do not seem to grow in the filter.

https://www.purewaterproducts.com/articles/activated-alumina

Microbiological risks
Although NMW sources must be protected from microbiological contamination, they may contain bacteria naturally present at the source. Activated alumina, being a porous medium may be colonised with bacteria, with the formation of a biofilm. Periodical regeneration of the activated alumina at a pH of =13 is bactericidal and biofilms are destroyed and removed upon rinsing. Therefore it is concluded that with correct control of the process there is no additional risk of microbiological contamination.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So I could toss a copper pipe in my aquarium and protective layers of organics, inorganic precipitates, bacteria growth etc could over time prevent the release of copper into my tank? That seems unlikely, but okay.....

I don't recall saying that about copper. Copper and tin are known to prevent biofilms by being highly toxic. That's why, for centuries, boat builders have coated boat hulls with copper or tin.

Aluminum does not have similar toxic properties and does grow biofilms (as well as corroding):

https://books.google.com/books?id=b...ved=0ahUKEwixr-LZrZHZAhVvp1kKHQwZC0cQ6AEIWjAI

 

[Scott Campbell]

I don't recall saying that about copper. Copper and tin are known to prevent biofilms by being highly toxic. That's why, for centuries, boat builders have coated boat hulls with copper or tin.

Aluminum does not have similar toxic properties and does grow biofilms (as well as corroding):

https://books.google.com/books?id=b...ved=0ahUKEwixr-LZrZHZAhVvp1kKHQwZC0cQ6AEIWjAI

Fair enough. I was not being entirely serious with the comment about the copper pipe by the way.

I believe you make a very convincing case that most anything is possible.

1. It is possible that kiln-fired ceramic material, which is normally rather inert at reef aquarium pH ranges, might release a very large amount of soluble aluminum rapidly and suddenly enough to cause immediate distress by corals. I certainly have no clue what Marine Pure is actually made of. Or how it is manufactured.

2. It is also possible that enough soluble aluminum is released to cause a toxic reaction (perhaps a level of 500 parts per billion or so) and then rapidly exported by various means down to levels people normally see with Triton testing (20 to 50 parts per billion) - which would allow affected organisms to recover. It seems a stretch to think a 90% reduction in soluble aluminum levels might happen quickly without large water changes and with just carbon, humic acids, detritus settling, mussel shell growth and such. But again, I suppose it is possible.

3. It is also possible that concurrent with rapid soluble alumnium export, the same ceramic material leaching large amounts of soluble aluminum might be quickly coated with organic material. Enough organic matter to significantly slow the release of soluble aluminum so as to not further exacerbate ongoing export and to be consistent with declining levels of aluminum over time on Triton tests.

4. It is also possible that different shapes releasing very different amounts of soluble aluminum might not be relevant.

5. It is also possible that this ceramic media can function as an effective means of biological filtration (maybe too effective as you note) while also releasing toxic soluble aluminum.

6. It certainly seems possible that all ceramic media might leach some soluble aluminum. Perhaps aluminum levels of 10 to 20 parts per billion might be common with the use of ceramic materials. I think it would be debatable, however, to consider this an "elevated" level of aluminum.

But is any of this actually likely or probable? That is what I continue to struggle with. It seems much more likely that an obviously dusty and degraded product releases enough dust (even with rinsing) to cause select corals short-term irritation. And then the dust settles and the problem largely disappears. With some low level release of soluble aluminum (10 to 20 parts per billion) which is not a significant concern.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But is any of this actually likely or probable? .

I don't know. I'm not sure what material forms are being released or exactly how. The problem might be primarily particulates, although rinsing seems to not prevent the issue. Still could be mostly particulates though.

 

[Scott Campbell]

I don't know. I'm not sure what material forms are being released or exactly how. The problem might be primarily particulates, although rinsing seems to not prevent the issue. Still could be mostly particulates though.

Thanks Randy! I greatly appreciate your time and patience and thoughtful responses.

 

[furam28]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

What is MarinePure made of and will it leach anything into my water?
MarinePure is an inert aluminosilicate ceramic that has been fired over 1000°C. It will not leach into tank or pond water.
source: http://www.cermedia.com/marinepure-faq.php

So Marinepure is made of aluminum, and hundreds of triton tests show aluminum in the tank water (including mine, when I had a 8x8x4 block). Maybe its not leaching... maybe its particulates that are not harming the corals. But with so many unknown variables in my tank and thousands of dollar worth of livestock, I am not willing to take a chance. There are easier and safer ways to control nitrates in a tank.

 

[Scott Campbell]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

What is MarinePure made of and will it leach anything into my water?
MarinePure is an inert aluminosilicate ceramic that has been fired over 1000°C. It will not leach into tank or pond water.
source: http://www.cermedia.com/marinepure-faq.php

So Marinepure is made of aluminum, and hundreds of triton tests show aluminum in the tank water (including mine, when I had a 8x8x4 block). Maybe its not leaching... maybe its particulates that are not harming the corals. But with so many unknown variables in my tank and thousands of dollar worth of livestock, I am not willing to take a chance. There are easier and safer ways to control nitrates in a tank.

Seems like a fine idea to not use any ceramic materials in your tank. But the metal aluminum and a kiln-fired alumina-silicate ceramic material are very different things. Just like water and hydrogen gas are very different even though both contain hydrogen. So I don't think it is super helpful to say "Marinepure is made of aluminum".

 

[chicago]

has anyone seen denitrification with these blocks.. BRS video really does not conclude one way or the other... dont mean to side track this thread... but then again... we have a lot of threads here to lend me some opinions... thanks

 

[FLSharkvictim]

MP can be a good product! In addition to suffering from overt toxicity, many organisms take up aluminum, and some have developed systems to deal with aluminum that they apparently don’t want. In freshwater snails, for example, it has been suggested that silica is used to detoxify aluminum.
These findings, and arguments on the stability, lability, and kinetics of aluminum-silicate interactions, suggest that a silicon-specific mechanism exists for the in vivo detoxification of aluminum, etc etc. That beeing said, I would only use Marine Pure to jump Start a new system not a well established reef tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

has anyone seen denitrification with these blocks.. BRS video really does not conclude one way or the other... dont mean to side track this thread... but then again... we have a lot of threads here to lend me some opinions... thanks

I doubt many people are doing controlled experiments, and I'm sure that it depends on exactly how you use the blocks as well as whether there is sufficient organic matter in the water (it is needed for denitrification),

but some folks do claim it reduces nitrate in their systems:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...t-leach-lets-guess.247034/page-9#post-2979655
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...t-leach-lets-guess.247034/page-8#post-2936060
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...t-leach-lets-guess.247034/page-4#post-2908416

and others say it did not:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/h...-leach-lets-guess.247034/page-19#post-3523797

 

[chicago]

I am doing a few things and will update this thread shortly.

I have some triton tests ordered.. i will sample the water and post in few weeks the findings..
as far as denitrafication. I plan on taking my 15 or so blocks that are currently in the sump.. i will limit the flow around them by placing them in some tupperware bins.. only flow will be over the top of the blocks then instead of around them. I will consider adding a carbon source such as vodka or vinegar .. time will tell

 

[ReefBeta]

Hey guys!

The time has come to reveal the results of the Marine Pure test! As the thread title alludes to, we ran into some speed bumps during this test, but we still walked away with some eye opening results.

Hey randy, did the second attempt at this test mentioned in the video ever happened? It has been 9 months since and still no update. Is it abandoned? If so, can you tell us why?

 

[chicago]

BRS chime in here... was wondering that myself..

 

[randyBRS]

Hey randy, did the second attempt at this test mentioned in the video ever happened? It has been 9 months since and still no update. Is it abandoned? If so, can you tell us why?

The follow up test for this hasn't happened yet. We've got pretty full plates with the amount of tests we have running currently as well as a laundry list of tests to complete in the future. (We're talking potentially years of testing!) We haven't abandoned this one completely and it's still on the list of future tests. It's just not our primary focus right now.

-Randy

 

[chicago]

Come on Randy.. that's no excuse.. your fans at REEF2REEF think you need to expand the warehouse...LOL

 

[ReefBeta]

Come on Randy.. that's no excuse.. your fans at REEF2REEF think you need to expand the warehouse...LOL

It's called ... a laboratory

 

[bif24701]

The follow up test for this hasn't happened yet. We've got pretty full plates with the amount of tests we have running currently as well as a laundry list of tests to complete in the future. (We're talking potentially years of testing!) We haven't abandoned this one completely and it's still on the list of future tests. It's just not our primary focus right now.

-Randy

We understand, you guys are great and have done more for us than we could hope for.

 

[chicago]

ok.... let me add in some information that came to me .. i am pretty confident.. and I am changing my opinion...
I had my water tested and Triton came back with zero.. Aluminum..
I have 14 blocks in my sump. the large blocks.. keep in mind though i do run Rowaphos, which some have considered to remove the Aluminum...