Kupang damsel developed sore in QT with Copper Power

[kurbanas]

Picked up three Kupang damsels on Saturday and put them in QT. All three seemed good, eating plenty. After a day of observation, I started copper treatment as part of QT protocol.

Yesterday raised copper to 1.6ppm with Copper Power, measured with Hanna HR checker.
All seemed good over night, raised to 2.25ppm this morning. Aerating the whole time.

Came to check this afternoon and noticed one of them developed a sore (or something) over the course of the day:

Not sure where this came from since I didn't see it (or notice it, rather) as part of my initial observation. But I did notice a tiny bit of red on the anal fin for all three:

Is this maybe some kind of bacterial infection? Should I stop the copper treatment now and shift to an antibiotic of some kind? Did I raise copper too quickly and stress it out? The fish seems alright at the moment, hanging out in a low(er) flow corner of the tank. Tried to feed but didn't seem very interested. The other two damsels aren't harassing it at all and seem to be as happy as they were and are still eating. Appreciate any thoughts/guidance.

 

[fishguy242]

#fishmedic

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Picked up three Kupang damsels on Saturday and put them in QT. All three seemed good, eating plenty. After a day of observation, I started copper treatment as part of QT protocol.

Yesterday raised copper to 1.6ppm with Copper Power, measured with Hanna HR checker.
All seemed good over night, raised to 2.25ppm this morning. Aerating the whole time.

Came to check this afternoon and noticed one of them developed a sore (or something) over the course of the day:

Not sure where this came from since I didn't see it (or notice it, rather) as part of my initial observation. But I did notice a tiny bit of red on the anal fin for all three:

Is this maybe some kind of bacterial infection? Should I stop the copper treatment now and shift to an antibiotic of some kind? Did I raise copper too quickly and stress it out? The fish seems alright at the moment, hanging out in a low(er) flow corner of the tank. Tried to feed but didn't seem very interested. The other two damsels aren't harassing it at all and seem to be as happy as they were and are still eating. Appreciate any thoughts/guidance.

This is most likely Uronema, and isn't related to the copper at all. It is an odd protozoan that lives in between the cells, internally in some fish. Copper can't reach it there, in fact no drug can except possibly some injectable meds. It is fairly common in newly acquired chromis, damsels, some wrasses and anthias.
It actually is a free living protozoan in many aquariums, nobody knows how/why it infects some fish internally, but it always seems to happen when they are transported through the supply chain.

Here is an article I posted about it:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

 

[kurbanas]

This is most likely Uronema, and isn't related to the copper at all. It is an odd protozoan that lives in between the cells, internally in some fish. Copper can't reach it there, in fact no drug can except possibly some injectable meds. It is fairly common in newly acquired chromis, damsels, some wrasses and anthias.
It actually is a free living protozoan in many aquariums, nobody knows how/why it infects some fish internally, but it always seems to happen when they are transported through the supply chain.

Here is an article I posted about it:

Uronema / Red Band Disease - Hemdal

Red Band Syndrome in Marine Fishes: Caused by the Protozoan; Uronema sp. Jay Hemdal Introduction: This moderately common disease of certain species of marine fish is so often misdiagnosed that most aquarists apply incorrect treatment methods...

www.reef2reef.com

Jay

Well that is unfortunate. While the mark isn't obviously red, I am pretty certain I got them from a LFS that uses hyposalinity...

I have two questions:
- Looks like a possible treatment is a ~6hr bath of CP at 40 ppm? I could do that but am always worried could cause more harm than good.
- From the article, seems like eventually Uronema will "explode" from the internal of the fish into the water column. Any idea if keeping copper ~2-2.5 ppm mitigate current or future risk to the other two damselfish?

Thanks for the reply, Jay, and great article.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Well that is unfortunate. While the mark isn't obviously red, I am pretty certain I got them from a LFS that uses hyposalinity...

I have two questions:
- Looks like a possible treatment is a ~6hr bath of CP at 40 ppm? I could do that but am always worried could cause more harm than good.
- From the article, seems like eventually Uronema will "explode" from the internal of the fish into the water column. Any idea if keeping copper ~2-2.5 ppm mitigate current or future risk to the other two damselfish?

Thanks for the reply, Jay, and great article.

It can be internal working its way out or simply consume cells of the flesh. Chloroquine Phosphate will also work but must be used precisely. Uronema is not an obligate parasite, and can thrive on bacteria, uneaten food, and waste so besides treatment also maintain a clean tank removing waste daily.
Best treatment choice is a 45 min formalin bath using Quick Cure if you can find it, otherwise Ruby rally Pro bath followed with treatment which works a little slower then finished in a quarantine tank.

 

[kurbanas]

Unfortunately I have neither formalin or ruby rally pro, so got a second QT set up with chloroquine phosphate at 20 mg/L. Also removed waste from OG QT and preparing new batch of water. The other two damsels still appear OK.

Will report back any success/failure.

Thanks again!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well that is unfortunate. While the mark isn't obviously red, I am pretty certain I got them from a LFS that uses hyposalinity...

I have two questions:
- Looks like a possible treatment is a ~6hr bath of CP at 40 ppm? I could do that but am always worried could cause more harm than good.
- From the article, seems like eventually Uronema will "explode" from the internal of the fish into the water column. Any idea if keeping copper ~2-2.5 ppm mitigate current or future risk to the other two damselfish?

Thanks for the reply, Jay, and great article.

That 40 ppm dose was in a petri dish with no live fish, I did that just to see if it would be effective. I think for fish in a tank, a static dose of 15 ppm should be used (no invertebrates present though). My expectation is that it won't cure the internal infections that pre-exist, but will help keep it from spreading.

Jay

 

[LadAShark]

Treatment options for Uronema

Different species than the one usually found on chromis, anthias, and other SW fish (Uronema marinum). But this study found that formalin, malachite green and hydrogen peroxide were all effective against Uronema nigricans during in vitro trials. Environmental factors and chemical agents...

humble.fish

Formalin can be an option. 100 ppm for 120 minutes, or 200 ppm for 60 minutes.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Treatment options for Uronema

Different species than the one usually found on chromis, anthias, and other SW fish (Uronema marinum). But this study found that formalin, malachite green and hydrogen peroxide were all effective against Uronema nigricans during in vitro trials. Environmental factors and chemical agents...

humble.fish

Formalin can be an option. 100 ppm for 120 minutes, or 200 ppm for 60 minutes.

Trouble is, that doesn’t work on inter cellular Uronema, formalin doesn’t go that deep into the tissues.

People miss the issue - just because you see an external lesion, that doesn’t mean it is treatable by a bath - with the inter cellular form, the damage has already been done before the lesion erupts on the surface.

I’ve treated external Uronema in weedy sea dragons with formalin about 20 years ago and it worked “o.k.”. Even then, it failed on some of the deeper lesions.

Finally, the highest acceptable standard formalin dose for tropical fish is 167 ppm. 200 ppm should only be used on cold water fish. I no longer go higher than 150 ppm …. The mortality rate in some fish was too great at the higher dose.

Jay