Lanthanum Chloride vs Cerium Chloride (My Fish Are Dying)

[spicymikey]

The Seaklear Phosphate Remover SDS dated from 2009 says it is lanthanum:

https://www.poolsupplyunlimited.com/Products/Manuals/107045_2011102516330.pdf

THe one from 2014 says it is confidential:

https://support.spa-mart.com/hc/en-us/article_attachments/360092352933/seaklear_phosphate_remover.pdf

The one from 2016 says it is lanthanum:

https://aessw.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/Pdfs/SDS/Phosphate%20Remover.pdf

Yes that's true. But if you go to their website now and go to their document download page you will find that the SDS for their product called phosphate remover is missing. It's the only product in their list that does not have an Associated SDS document. I don't know why but I'm just pointing that out. 2016 is a long time ago so I personally would not use that product right now without some confirmation. I actually just emailed the maker as well this morning. If they respond I'll share what I learned

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes that's true. But if you go to their website now and go to their document download page you will find that the SDS for their product called phosphate remover is missing. It's the only product in their list that does not have an Associated SDS document. I don't know why but I'm just pointing that out. 2016 is a long time ago so I personally would not use that product right now without some confirmation. I actually just emailed the maker as well this morning. If they respond I'll share what I learned

Yes, I agree. Let us know what you hear. A company should not be able to refuse to tell you which SDS is current, unless they have determined it is nonhazardous and requires no SDS (which they also should indicate to you).

 

[BeanAnimal]

With all due respect, your comprehension level is astonishingly low. You're spreading misinformation! Too bad there isn't a thumbs down button on the forum. Sorry that you wasted your time misreading all 5 pages.

The product that contains Cerium Chloride discussed in this thread is called Orenda PR-10,000. This is in fact the product that switched its formula from Lanthanum Chloride to Cerium Chloride which @Randy Holmes-Farley confirmed is extremely toxic to aquatic animals.

The obligate due respect before a petty insult. I owe you no respect but will say there are friendlier ways to address people.

The overarching lesson here is the danger of using commercial products not formulated and maintained for use in this hobby.

Given supply chain and other considerations the risk of formula change is high,

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, I agree. Let us know what you hear. A company should not be able to refuse to tell you which SDS is current, unless they have determined it is nonhazardous and requires no SDS (which they also should indicate to you).

Randy, I agree in theory. In practice there is no shortage of companies who don’t follow the the rules or for that matter employ anyone that knows the rules. To that end, who even bothers to enforce them anymore?

 

[BZOFIQ]

The obligate due respect before a petty insult. I owe you no respect but will say there are friendlier ways to address people.

Agreed, there are indeed.

 

[BZOFIQ]

With all due respect to you also, are you feeling okay? Why do you feel compelled to respond in such a rude and condescending matter when there's no reason for it. It's your second post now speaking to me that way. I use LaCl3 regularly to control my phosphates. I'm interested in the subject and had concerns whether these pool products are safe. I stumbled across this thread late to the discussion. We all know how these threads go. Many voices sometimes talking over each other oftentimes contradicting each other. When skimming through them it can be hard to follow along completely. There is absolutely no reason for you to speak to me in such a condescending manner and to characterize my posts as misinformation.

Do accept my apologies, perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Regardless of the tone, I did mean what I said. This here apologizing for my tone doesn't change that. First you post your opinion misleading people that SeaKlear is made of Cerium Chloride; which it is not, then you claim you read all 5 pages of the thread, now you're saying you skimmed through it.

I tend to thoroughly read threads/articles when I am interested in the topic and skim through sales threads or things I don't care for.

In this thread, post #1, the original poster @Ben Pedersen said

Last night after much consideration and reading I dosed 0.4 mL of Orenda PR-10,000 ...

which caused fish death.


Then in post #81, @mgav1976 also confirmed that this same Orenda PR-10,000 caused death.

... I can also confirm orenda pr 10,000 is not aquarium safe. I could not find much info on this product. Unfortunately I came across your thread after having a similar experience. ...

In post #95, the OP is logically referring to the same product he posted about in the thread (refer to post #1)

I was the one who contacted the vender... The spec sheet was out of date, the vender has switched to Cerium because it is cheeper and more affective. If you use this product in your tank, even in small small amounts, you can kill sensitive fish and you will kill micro organisms that your tank needs. My tank has never fully recovered. If you get an old bottle, it may be fine... but not worth the risk.

...

Help me understand.

How did you deduce that SeaKlear switched to Cerium Chloride where their SDS clearly shows that it's Lanthanum Chloride and this whole thread is about Orenda PR-10,000 switching to Cerium Chloride being toxic and causing major loses?

 

[BZOFIQ]

Not going to dive deep… I messed with LaCl over a decade ago for the better part of a year. Damaged/killed several fish at extremely tiny dosages into layered low micron socks.

Will never use it again given My experience. The fact that a materials switch can happen because this is not a hobby manufactured product further cements my opinion.

I have a different experience and maintain that if used correctly it (Lanthanum Chloride) is very effective at removing phosphate and safe while doing it. I've used Lanthanum Chloride from different vendors too and started using after listening to Joe Yaiullo of Long Island Aquarium talk at local club. If he uses it on his magnificent 20,000 reef, when done properly, it should be safe.

If you read a lot of these threads (outside of this one; this one talks about a product changing ingredients) most people don't dose correctly, dose too quickly and don't use proper mechanical media for removal of precipitate. Worse yet, they use the highly diluted products sold for this hobby the same way as the concentrated solution used outside of the hobby.

That said,

Yes, I can agree that there is a risk of the manufacturer switching ingredients and this is what happened here with Orenda PR-10,000 but a call to the manufacturer can clarify what's in the product before sourcing it, especially where we are reaching for products from outside the hobby, which is very often the case.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yaiullo of Long Island Aquarium talk at local club. If he uses it on his magnificent 20,000 reef, when done properly, it should be safe.

I had a conversation with joe in 2007 when we hosted Macna here in Pittsburgh and started dosing shortly thereafter.

There is a vast difference between a 20,000 gallon reef and a 150 gallon reef and when/where the LaCl can react. Then conclusion drawn about safety is IMHO application of fallacy.

If you read a lot of these threads (outside of this one; this one talks about a product changing ingredients) most people don't dose correctly, dose too quickly and don't use proper mechanical media for removal of precipitate.

I have spent ~15 years reading about it and have tremendous first hand experience with it. I used rather controlled trial and error and logged almost an entire notebook (destroyed several years ago) with the results/data.

Not here to argue safe or not, I don’t think it is and my opinion will not change. Other folks are free to do as they wish, I am not here to stop them.

a call to the manufacturer can clarify what's in the product before sourcing it, especially where we are reaching for products from outside the hobby, which is very often the case.

Don’t count on getting informed answers. Supply chain substitutions are often done far beyond the eyes or realm of customer support. Even in this case, if I read correctly the manufacturer did confirm the change but is stating it is safe… clearly it is not.

Buyer beware always but using products outside of their direct intent always adds to risk.

 

[BZOFIQ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand your points because they are logical.

That said, I wasn't trying to sway your opinion - I just stated mine along with my own experiences. Each person can draw their own conclusion re this product and any other product/solution on this forum. It is hard however if someone (not you) adds to confusion by posting wrong information.

We can state the obvious regardless of what mine or your opinion is:

There are plenty of products sold by aquarium companies for this hobby containing Lanthanum Chloride and it (Lanthanum Chloride) is sold as very effective phosphate remover. Plenty of seasoned hobbyists here, or on Reef Central and elsewhere use it on tanks far smaller than what Joe Y. uses it on. Take Mark L. (Melev's Reef) who uses it on a tank far smaller the LIA's 20,000 Gallon tank......anyway seems like I'm trying to persuade you again and I am truly not.

BTW. If you are THE Bean Animal, I wanted to say Big Thanks! My dual Bean Animal on the new build I am working on ATM is absolutely silent even with lots of water going through it.

Happy Reefing

 

[Ben Pedersen]

Do accept my apologies, perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Regardless of the tone, I did mean what I said. This here apologizing for my tone doesn't change that. First you post your opinion misleading people that SeaKlear is made of Cerium Chloride; which it is not, then you claim you read all 5 pages of the thread, now you're saying you skimmed through it.

I tend to thoroughly read threads/articles when I am interested in the topic and skim through sales threads or things I don't care for.

In this thread, post #1, the original poster @Ben Pedersen said



which caused fish death.


Then in post #81, @mgav1976 also confirmed that this same Orenda PR-10,000 caused death.




In post #95, the OP is logically referring to the same product he posted about in the thread (refer to post #1)




Help me understand.

How did you deduce that SeaKlear switched to Cerium Chloride where their SDS clearly shows that it's Lanthanum Chloride and this whole thread is about Orenda PR-10,000 switching to Cerium Chloride being toxic and causing major loses?

The vender told me they changed to Cerium because it was cheeper and more affective.. In my opinion, Lanthium used carefully can be affective and safe. However, there are safer alternatives.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

Thanks for your input. I did see many of the comments came from you originally. To be clear for everyone who might stumble on this thread, are you talking about SeaKlear "Phosphate Remover"? If so, tell that to @BZOFIQ . He seems very defensive to my suggestion that these pool products should be used with caution. . The SeaKlear website has a documents page and the SDS on their "Phosphate 4000" product clearly states "Lanthanum salt derivatives". But their product called "Phoshphate Remover" has no SDS associated with it. Its the only product in their list that does not. Maybe thats the one that has switched to Cerium and they pulled the SDS from the website because it hasn't been updated yet.

I have no idea. I just posted on this thread yesterday to offer an innocent cautionary comment. I'm not trying to share misinformation, just sharing thoughts because I use Brightwell PhosphateE and would like a more economical option as well

I'm the originator of this thread. I will post photos of the bottle used. It was the SeaKlear phosphate remover identified as safe in other posts on R2R. Anyone can use it if they want. It is a free country . I posted my experience and information I received from the vender so others would be aware.

 

[spicymikey]

Do accept my apologies, perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Regardless of the tone, I did mean what I said. This here apologizing for my tone doesn't change that. First you post your opinion misleading people that SeaKlear is made of Cerium Chloride; which it is not, then you claim you read all 5 pages of the thread, now you're saying you skimmed through it.

I tend to thoroughly read threads/articles when I am interested in the topic and skim through sales threads or things I don't care for.

In this thread, post #1, the original poster @Ben Pedersen said



which caused fish death.


Then in post #81, @mgav1976 also confirmed that this same Orenda PR-10,000 caused death.




In post #95, the OP is logically referring to the same product he posted about in the thread (refer to post #1)




Help me understand.

How did you deduce that SeaKlear switched to Cerium Chloride where their SDS clearly shows that it's Lanthanum Chloride and this whole thread is about Orenda PR-10,000 switching to Cerium Chloride being toxic and causing major loses?

I accept your apology. But my friend I really do not know what you're talking about about me sharing Miss information. It's like you're making things up in your head and that does not make it reality. I don't want to get into a back and forth with you but I can't let you sit here and insult and degrade me unfairly. I initially responded to your post #5 where you said people should use seaklear because it's safe. I just asked if we can we be sure even that is safe. I never said that I knew as a matter of fact that it was cerium chloride. But because what happened to Ben with the other product I thought it was worth being careful. And then you just blew up it started putting me down like I'm some idiot. You cited as proof some SDS from 2016. I then follow it up saying I'm still not comfortable with this product or any made for pools. And then you went on insulting me again. Can you not see your tone and assertions on this thread are off base? I don't know you and I don't know what's going on in your life so I'm not going to be hard on you other than to say please think before you type

 

[BZOFIQ]

I'm the originator of this thread. I will post photos of the bottle used. It was the SeaKlear phosphate remover identified as safe in other posts on R2R. Anyone can use it if they want. It is a free country . I posted my experience and information I received from the vender so others would be aware.

Ben, I appreciate you chiming in.

Perhaps I am being shown an alternate version or R2R in a parallel universe but I could have sworn you said you used Orenda PR-10,000 product you mentioned in your original post.

Call me crazy but for some reason this is the product showing on my screen - see below, a screenshot from your post.

You also stated in that very post that you called manufacturer of this product and they changed formula to Cerium Chloride 15 years ago.

SDS for SeaKlear goes back only a few years and shows Lanthanum Chloride and NOT Cerium Chloride.

Help me out brother.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

Ben, I appreciate you chiming in.

Perhaps I am being shown an alternate version or R2R in a parallel universe but I could have sworn you said you used Orenda PR-10,000 product you mentioned in your original post.

Call me crazy but for some reason this is the product showing on my screen - see below, a screenshot from your post.

You also stated in that very post that you called manufacturer of this product and they changed formula to Cerium Chloride 15 years ago.

SDS for SeaKlear goes back only a few years and shows Lanthanum Chloride and NOT Cerium Chloride.

Help me out brother.

You are correct. I switched to Seaklear and got my brands mixed up . Sorry about that.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

This thread is certainly going to confuse people.

Can you clarify exactly which product you asked a vendor about that you are referring to in this post?

I agree, very confusing. The product that I had issues with and spoke to the vendor about was Orenda PR-10,000. Some how this thread got switched over to SeaKlear.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree, very confusing. The product that I had issues with and spoke to the vendor about was Orenda PR-10,000. Some how this thread got switched over to SeaKlear.

Thank you.

 

[spicymikey]

Thank you.

I think it was my post when I was responding to post #5 talking about seaklear. Thinking out loud I said can we even be certain that product is safe. My post got misunderstood by someone suggesting that I was saying it is indeed not safe. And that got the ball rolling. There are some posts subsequent to that showing an SDS document indicating that see clear uses lanthanum chloride. But it's a little old and I actually emailed the manufacturer to get positive confirmation one way or the other.

I'm interested and engaged in this topic because I also use Lanthanum and I also would like to find a more cost-effective product instead of something like Brightwell phosphate e.

Aside from all that there still is a very compelling argument to be cautious because since these products are not designed for aquarium use we can never be certain when they might switch, or add additional, ingredients. I wonder if there is a source of straight latinum chloride instead of finding it in a product that uses it. I have been successful finding straight ethyl alcohol as well as acetic acid for carbon dosing instead of consumer grade vodka and white vinegar.. maybe it's possible to Source a supplier for this chemical as well. I'll look around.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I wonder if there is a source of straight latinum chloride instead of finding it in a product that uses it. I have been successful finding straight ethyl alcohol as well as acetic acid for carbon dosing instead of consumer grade vodka and white vinegar.. maybe it's possible to Source a supplier for this chemical as well. I'll look around.

I give DIY lanthanum advice here:

DIY Lanthanum Dosing

Someone asked for a DIY lanthanum dosing recipe. Be sure you understand that some folks have issues with fish (especially tangs) before embarking on lanthanum dosing. it is also preferable to catch as many of the solids that precipitate out as you can, so dosing before some sort of...

www.reef2reef.com

Amazon has some suppliers of reagent grade material.

 

[spicymikey]

I give DIY lanthanum advice here:

DIY Lanthanum Dosing

Someone asked for a DIY lanthanum dosing recipe. Be sure you understand that some folks have issues with fish (especially tangs) before embarking on lanthanum dosing. it is also preferable to catch as many of the solids that precipitate out as you can, so dosing before some sort of...

www.reef2reef.com

Amazon has some suppliers of reagent grade material.

I missed this post of yours. Thanks for pointing to it. You're such a wealth of knowledge Randy. I really appreciate you and your contributions

 

[spicymikey]

So I never heard back from SeaKlear with my email but they have an 800 number listed so I just called them. Surprisingly the support line picked up and I spoke to someone. Explained I might want to use this for marine aquarium phosphate removal and wanted to know exactly what was in it. Told him the Downloads page didn't list the SDS for the "Phosphate Remover CR" product.

He was more than happy to help. He said its mostly Lanthanum Sulfate. He did caution me and said they do not manufacturer the ingredients themselves so they cannot guarantee the existence of other elements related to the manufacturing process itself. He knew for sure there were measurable amounts of zinc in the products.

So that's the scoop as of now. I personally am not certain I am going to continue using Lanthanum as a way to control phosphates. But if I do, I might try to find a purer source of Lanthanum like Randy suggested in his DIY Lanthanum Dosing article.

Happy Friday