Lanthanum Chloride vs Cerium Chloride (My Fish Are Dying)

[gbroadbridge]

He was more than happy to help. He said its mostly Lanthanum Sulfate. He did caution me and said they do not manufacturer the ingredients themselves so they cannot guarantee the existence of other elements related to the manufacturing process itself. He knew for sure there were measurable amounts of zinc in the products.

Sounds like the customer support person does not know the product.

Did they send you the MSDS?

 

[spicymikey]

Sounds like the customer support person does not know the product.

Did they send you the MSDS?

No but I did tell him that the link on their website did not have it anymore and ask him if he could update that. That was the only product on the download page that was missing the SDS link. He said he would get it looked into.

It's certainly possible he is wrong. But he didn't seem to sound unsure of himself but who knows. I do know that the phosphate 4000 product has the SDS listed and it says the ingredients are "Lanthanum salt derivatives". That could be a few things including Lanthanum sulfate Regardless, would it matter? Both would be a good source of Lanthanum when mixed in water and dosed. As long as it's not cerium.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lanthanum sulfate would be equally suitable to lanthanum chloride.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

I have switched to Calcium Carbonate powder. It works well for me and has no risk other then decreasing phosphates to quickly.

 

[biom]

Calcium carbonate powder lowering phosphate to quickly? Can you please provide more info?

 

[gbroadbridge]

Calcium carbonate powder lowering phosphate to quickly? Can you please provide more info?

I'm assuming the phosphate would bind to the calcium carbonate powder which would then be filtered out mechanically or by skimmer.

I know Coral Snow make that claim but I've never actually tried it.

 

[biom]

I'm assuming the phosphate would bind to the calcium carbonate powder which would then be filtered out mechanically or by skimmer.

I know Coral Snow make that claim but I've never actually tried it.

No they don’t. They say Coral Snow Plus will remove phosphate. It is different product than classic Coral Snow. Probably Plus version has lantanium chloride in it to be able to reduce 8 mg po4 per 1 ml dosed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No they don’t. They say Coral Snow Plus will remove phosphate. It is different product than classic Coral Snow. Probably Plus version has lantanium chloride in it to be able to reduce 8 mg po4 per 1 ml dosed.

I believe some of our experimental types in this forum tested it, and IIRC, the effect of phosphate binding to calcium carbonate powder was fairly low.

Maybe some of them can chime in or someone remembers a link to the discussion.

 

[gbroadbridge]

No they don’t. They say Coral Snow Plus will remove phosphate. It is different product than classic Coral Snow. Probably Plus version has lantanium chloride in it to be able to reduce 8 mg po4 per 1 ml dosed.

Calcium Carbonate is used as a phosphate binder in human patients with renal failure, in a similar way to Lanthanum Chloride.

I don't know if it has a similar effect in seawater or if something else is in the Plus version of coral snow.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Calcium Carbonate is used as a phosphate binder in human patients with renal failure, in a similar way to Lanthanum Chloride.

I don't know if it has a similar effect in seawater or if something else is in the Plus version of coral snow.

That's entirely different.

Calcium carbonate is a poor choice in this context, and most physicians choosing calcium (instead of my drugs, sevelamer carbonate and sevelamer hydrochloride) use readily soluble and seemingly more effective calcium acetate.

But regardless, calcium carbonate dissolves to free calcium in the acid of the stomach, and then one precipitates calcium phosphate in the small intestine where pH rises and phosphate becomes available via digestion of organics.

It is not binding of phosphate to the surface of calcium carbonate particulates.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

Calcium carbonate powder lowering phosphate to quickly? Can you please provide more info?

Reef snow concept. In my experience, it can remove phosphates if you use enough, and regularly.

 

[Ben Pedersen]

I'm assuming the phosphate would bind to the calcium carbonate powder which would then be filtered out mechanically or by skimmer.

I know Coral Snow make that claim but I've never actually tried it.

Skimmer and sock. It works for me.

 

[Garf]

Skimmer and sock. It works for me.

You got a conventional sand bed in that tank?

 

[gbroadbridge]

That's entirely different.

Calcium carbonate is a poor choice in this context, and most physicians choosing calcium (instead of my drugs, sevelamer carbonate and sevelamer hydrochloride) use readily soluble and seemingly more effective calcium acetate.

But regardless, calcium carbonate dissolves to free calcium in the acid of the stomach, and then one precipitates calcium phosphate in the small intestine where pH rises and phosphate becomes available via digestion of organics.

It is not binding of phosphate to the surface of calcium carbonate particulates.

Thanks for the explanation. You can tell I'm not an MD and a little knowledge is a dangerous thing

I was relying on information gleaned from article below and was pondering if it would be useful in the context of reef keeping, however you mention others have tried the experiment with limited success so perhaps I'll skip it.

Phosphate binders in patients with chronic kidney disease

www.nps.org.au

 

[Ben Pedersen]

You got a conventional sand bed in that tank?

Yes, I have a sand bottom.

 

[Garf]

Yes, I have a sand bottom.

Cheers. I’ve been playing with sand and it’s great at filtering tiny particles, unless it’s fluidised in which case it’s rubbish
I’ve added calcium carbonate fines from unrinsed sand additions and a sock (preferably dirty) certainly speeds things up. I’m a little dubious about lanthanum being caught with a 10 micron sock however. Now, Lanthanum phosphate running through a static bed, that appears to be very effective.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Reef snow concept. In my experience, it can remove phosphates if you use enough, and regularly.

I certainly expect that is true.

 

[biom]

Reef snow concept. In my experience, it can remove phosphates if you use enough, and regularly.

Sorry I am not familiar with this concept. Is that Brightwell Reef Snow product? Or something else based on natural phenomena of marine snow?

 

[biom]

Powdered calcium carbonate is in the common form of aragonite or calcite both not providing enough surface. But vaterite is very porous and nanoparticles of it are know to be very efficient in phosphate reduction in freshwater. The problem is vaterite is not that stabile but still there are not that complicated methods for producing nanoparticles of it:

Synthesis and Characterization of Porous CaCO3 Vaterite Particles by Simple Solution Method

Appropriately engineered CaCO[3] vaterite has interesting properties such as biodegradability, large surface area, and unique physical and chemical properties that allow a variety of uses in medical applications, mainly in dental material as the scaffold. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Who knows one day we can have Coral Snow made of vaterite nanoparticles

 

[Ben Pedersen]

Powdered calcium carbonate is in the common form of aragonite or calcite both not providing enough surface. But vaterite is very porous and nanoparticles of it are know to be very efficient in phosphate reduction in freshwater. The problem is vaterite is not that stabile but still there are not that complicated methods for producing nanoparticles of it:

Synthesis and Characterization of Porous CaCO3 Vaterite Particles by Simple Solution Method

Appropriately engineered CaCO[3] vaterite has interesting properties such as biodegradability, large surface area, and unique physical and chemical properties that allow a variety of uses in medical applications, mainly in dental material as the scaffold. ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Who knows one day we can have Coral Snow made of vaterite nanoparticles

Powdered CaCO3 has enough surface area to be affective.