LEDs. Forever controversial?

revhtree · Mar 21, 2016

YES they will be and NOT because they don't do the job but because there will always be those people who believe there is only one way to skin a cat!

ksc · Mar 21, 2016

You must remember that the average led fixture's spectrum is worse than a 2 year old mh bulb. Then people run these things for a year or 2 then realize they need bulb replacements. Bulb replacements on an led fixture basically render the unit worthless...

Salty0331 · Mar 21, 2016

There are plenty of great points made in this thread! I myself have been in the hobby for over 16years now and had several different systems over the years.

Speaking from personal experience I believe currently there are too many user controlled variables in the LED systems. Especially for new comers to understand how to properly dial the LEDs in properly. I think if more manufactures would put add preset percentages for the types of systems we keep, i.e. SPS, LPS, Mixed etc. that may help out a lot.

I myself follow the K.I.S.S. Method when it comes to my systems, with that being said I tried out a couple different models of LEDs from some of the premium manufactures. I can tell you that my corals as well as myself were not completely happy with the end result. I have since switched back to T5's exclusively.

With that being said it in the end is up to the reefer and their level of experience and comfort with what ever system works best for them!

Happy Reefing!

ritter6788 · Mar 21, 2016

hart24601 said:
I think with past light technology changes there were as many people that were skeptical, just more folks use the Internet and forums these days. Heck, it's fun to read archived posts about how blue light is useless and 20k would kill corals!

I remember when I first got into the hobby 6500k was for growth 20000k was for color and 10000k was a middle ground. Wasn't that long ago. Now the main argument for growth and color with metal halides is 20k Radiums. Only a few years ago people claimed Radiums couldn't grow coral.

Lowell Lemon · Mar 21, 2016

I guess with any change in technology there is a learing curve. That said the options to vary the output of the LED systems seems overwhelming to me. I have been in or around the hobby/industry for over 30 years and I find the level of technology over the top in most of the systems I see. Technology is great as long as you can be it's master if not then a true plug and play system is going to provide more success to more people in the hobby. This is based on experiance and observation. Many hobbiest do not have the time or dedication to get a masters or doctoral level of knowledge and experiance in coral care before success is acheived. I would prefer a canned LED program within the scope of the tank I would like to acheive. Mixed reef, SPS, LPS, or soft coral might be some program choices. I am about to jump in to LED and and the whole cloud cover thunderstorm cycle seems like a parlor show and not necessary for success. I currently have a single 150w DE MH over a 40 gallon Pentagon. I want more and so the new tank is in production and will soon be up with LED lighting or T-5 for all the reasons discussed here. I do love the simplicity of the Kessils and my jump that direction. I just finished switching my house to LED to lower consumption costs and I see the results in my bill. Love the the longer life as well.

TylerS · Mar 21, 2016

Salty0331 said:
There are plenty of great points made in this thread! I myself have been in the hobby for over 16years now and had several different systems over the years.

Speaking from personal experience I believe currently there are too many user controlled variables in the LED systems. Especially for new comers to understand how to properly dial the LEDs in properly. I think if more manufactures would put add preset percentages for the types of systems we keep, i.e. SPS, LPS, Mixed etc. that may help out a lot.

I myself follow the K.I.S.S. Method when it comes to my systems, with that being said I tried out a couple different models of LEDs from some of the premium manufactures. I can tell you that my corals as well as myself were not completely happy with the end result. I have since switched back to T5's exclusively.

With that being said it in the end is up to the reefer and their level of experience and comfort with what ever system works best for them!

Happy Reefing!

Lowell Lemon said:
I guess with any change in technology there is a learing curve. That said the options to vary the output of the LED systems seems overwhelming to me. I have been in or around the hobby/industry for over 30 years and I find the level of technology over the top in most of the systems I see. Technology is great as long as you can be it's master if not then a true plug and play system is going to provide more success to more people in the hobby. This is based on experiance and observation. Many hobbiest do not have the time or dedication to get a masters or doctoral level of knowledge and experiance in coral care before success is acheived. I would prefer a canned LED program within the scope of the tank I would like to acheive. Mixed reef, SPS, LPS, or soft coral might be some program choices. I am about to jump in to LED and and the whole cloud cover thunderstorm cycle seems like a parlor show and not necessary for success. I currently have a single 150w DE MH over a 40 gallon Pentagon. I want more and so the new tank is in production and will soon be up with LED lighting or T-5 for all the reasons discussed here. I do love the simplicity of the Kessils and my jump that direction. I just finished switching my house to LED to lower consumption costs and I see the results in my bill. Love the the longer life as well.

I agree with both of these comments. LED is clearly a superior technology but the manufactures are screwing it up. The good ones are expensive so you have people buying really poorly made cheap LED lights and then after a failure they claim that LED's don't work. T5 and MH you basically pick a bulb and that's it. LED's have a million different options and I think the manufacturers aren't doing a very good job of simplifying setup and providing recommendations for new users. Also, most of the high end manufacturers go with the "puck" style of light which leads to super high output right under the light, shadowing, etc. My assumption is that the "puck" is cheaper to make than having a larger fixture with spread out LEDs. Personally I'm excited for the Lani-LED from triton, which uses passive cooling and goes away from the puck design.

twilliard · Mar 21, 2016

Got an email and Orphek has a new fixture! The Atlantik V3 PLUS

Can't wait to get my hands on this one

jackson6745 · Mar 21, 2016

I still run MH + T5 over my tank but everything else is new technology on my system. I'm not too stubborn to change lol. I have not changed over because initial cost is too high on my system to get the same type of coverage, and the results of 400w radium run tanks are superior from what I have seen over the last 5 years in person, on the web, and on my own personal tanks. Of course there is SPS success with LED, I've seen many nice SPS tanks in person run LED as primary lighting, however, they have all 'over-statcked' fixtures beyond manufacturer recommendations. The tanks that follow guideline spread incorporated t5's to eliminate shadowing. Either option is not good for me do to initial cost, or losing the effect of a clean lighting hood such as the Giesemann Spectra that I run now. If we are talking about mixed reefs, I don't see a reason not to go led. Softies and LPS are not very picky, and nothing makes corals fluoresce like blue led.

Mark Shelly · Mar 21, 2016

From a newcomer prospective:
I wouldn't know if my lighting, coral placement, feeding or water parameters were responsible for good or bad coral growth as it is all new to me. What I would like to know from the lighting is whether it is meant to grow soft/LPS or SPS corals and bring out their colors so I can make a good choice at a reasonable price for the tank I want. I don't want $700 SPS lights for a softie tank. Also, will the lights allow me to see the florescence of the corals at some point. I like the idea of T5s or LED strips to provide light from many angles as the sun is not always in the same location, but I understand that point lighting may be better visually for contrast and shimmer to capture the look of a point in time.
I didn't know that LEDs could degrade over time as mentioned earlier in this thread; I always thought the advantage of them was their life expectancy (besides less heat and lower eclectic bills). Does the frequency change, or is there just lower light output? Or is it something else such as a film covering the lenses/UV degradation of the lenses?
From the study referenced, they showed certain frequency percentages were optimal for them. Does this mean that increasing the red and green frequency amount can ****** coral growth? Or does this just suggest the minimum needed without increasing algae growth.
Are there frequencies that coralline algae do best in?

I purchased 2 Orbit Marine light strips for a softie tank. I did 2 because the tank is a little on the deep side and I could light from the front and back . The advantage to me of the LED strips is the tank is pretty evenly lit (compared to puck style LEDs). I can also see the florescence when the blue moonlight setting is on. And I don't need a hanging fixture and open top. The disadvantages are that I have to remove the lights occasionally to get into the tank, salt creep reduces light transmittance, and some frequencies are missing. When I want to view the tank or take pictures, I also turn on the cover florescent fixture as I feel it adds missing spectrum. With just the moonlight blue, I like to shine a UV flashlight to bring out the fluorescents.

cjd · Mar 21, 2016

There was a time people bashed T5's , Leds have come a long way. I'm not a fan of my AI sols (Im assuming they were first gen , got them used) that I tinkered with for 5-6 years over multiple tanks .Had hit or miss results . Going with an ATI T5 fixture for my next build /75 rimless cycling now. Just curious myself to see how things turn out under the T5's . When I came back to this hobby I tried an Acan 101AC 12B over a bio cube 14 had great growth on sps and perfect color. never could get those AI sols to work for me.

twilliard · Mar 21, 2016

Orphek Atlantik v2.1b

wrestle1952 · Mar 21, 2016

icecool2 said:
What is it going to take for people to accept LEDs? They clearly work. They clearly work well. Some coral farms are using them exclusively. There has yet to be anything other than anecdotal "<This> works better than LEDs, trust me" and people seem to agree with it!

I'm so tired of getting into all of these threads where people clearly don't understand the lights and don't understand even the basics of photosynthesis. When will it end!?

aereaus · Mar 21, 2016

Ive used halides for YEARS. I now use Ecotech radion xr30w pros. It took seeing them in person and seeing the results they produce to convince me. I will never switch back and i personally dont care if others are concinved. Theyre beautiful and they work splendidly.

wrestle1952 · Mar 21, 2016

It depends on what type of corals you want to have in your tank. I prefer SPS and LED's are hit and miss with the various species. LED diodes give out light in a particular concentrated wave length. For example a 10K diode will only produce 1ok. Similar T5 bulbs and Metal Halide will have their emphasis on 10K, 14K, 20K etc. but they provide additional wavelengths. It would be similar to us eating the same meal, same time 24/7. We would survive, we would not thrive. I too have tried the various lights and always come back to MH or T5 especially for SPS. I do plan on having a cube tank for soft corals which have proven to grow under LED's. I may also do the same for a Cube for LPS. With those corals LED's may be acceptable.

aereaus · Mar 21, 2016

I disagree with them being hit and miss yes it does matter which type you use but i have had success with every coral i have put in my tank. I should mention i use the gen 3s

dbrewsky · Mar 21, 2016

I think that the main issue with lack of success with LED in addition to not dialing in proper spectrum is attempting to use a very point source light to produce maximum coverage with as few fixtures simply because the initial price per unit is higher. How many tanks do you see trying to cover 2' square areas + with one fixture? The successful tanks I have seen seem to use many more fixtures over the same size tanks to ensure adequate and even coverage.

I also think that attempting to utilize one technology is not the best way to maximize reef tank lighting. I have integrated t-5 and led to attempt and create the best overall spectrum,coverage, and intensity for my corals.

Greenstreet.1 · Mar 21, 2016

Loving this convo. I myself have been using LEDs for 8 years now and don't have a problem with them. For the pass four years I have been running a led t5 combo and I also love that. I find that most times when people are having problems it's not the LEDs but the LEDs end up getting the blame.

aereaus · Mar 21, 2016

Greenstreet.1 said:
Loving this convo. I myself have been using LEDs for 8 years now and don't have a problem with them. For the pass four years I have been running a led t5 combo and I also love that. I find that most times when people are having problems it's not the LEDs but the LEDs end up getting the blame.

Well said, I am not saying I am necessarily getting better results with my radions vs metal halides but I will say my corals pop more and i dont have to worry about heat and I use far less energy. I am a big fan of the ramping and ability to control the spectrum. It is an interesting conversation but one worth participating in. Lighting is key in any successful reef environment.

go29 · Mar 21, 2016

Agree with a lot of things mentioned on the thread and will add my two cents:

I was well into the hobby when T5 lights first came onto the scene, and CLEARLY remember when numerous people online at sites such as reef central told me that T5 would simply NOT grow coral, yada yada yada... well guess that advice didn't work out for them

Bring us to present day and I see a lot of the same arguments now with LED, people claim that now LED just can't do it long term, don't bring out as nice of colors etc basically using the same arguments that people told me when I got my first TEK T5 lighting system many years ago. I think new equipment just needs to be proved

In my opinion I totally agree with several above who have mentioned most LED failures can be attributed to user error. I see far to many folks wanting led, but unfortunately they go cheap eBay route etc instead of quality proven units, and honestly you just will never know the long term quality when you buy cheap units (my opinion). They may be built with cheaper components and thus may end up losing spectrum intensity or power over time, thus leading one to believe that they won't work long term.

Now if you look at some of the more "higher end" types of LED lighting, I think the problem here is 2 fold:

1. Most people don't know what they are doing with all the "controllability" ... i.e. they constantly mess with lights, or simply set lights for what they think looks cool, rather than focusing on par and spectrum of light. I also believe that many people are so focused with getting as high of par levels as possible that they really miss out on the fact that most* corals will be totally fine with par values around 200-300. Seems like everyone wants that LED that cranks out 999+ par levels, and they simply end up frying corals in the process of trying to get increased growth (more is not always better) and get upset with LED.

2. This is just opinion after owning every type of lighting from high end LED, T5, halides, PC, and the old school T8 bulbs.... I personally think people don't use ENOUGH MODULES over their tanks for LED. I realize manufactures show charts of par values etc of the led covering like say 18 " etc, but personally feel that by adding more total number of LED lights (gets expensive quickly obviously) many would see much better results. My opinions on this have been through observation after using AI sol, hydra, and now 52 HD (as far as LED lights are concerned). Through my course of LED i have noticed that when I add more total light modules then recommended, I see MUCH IMPROVED results in my reef. I attribute this to having more total # pucks above the tank, thus helping to eliminate shading. I think just because par can reach out to acceptable levels of 18" doesn't necessarily mean you are getting adequate light spectrum out around this areas. Also you may have to have the lights cranked up all the way to get adequate par at 18", but this means that area directly under the pucks could be well over 400 par etc.... thus creating to much variation in the tank. By adding more units above the tank, you increase number of pucks thereby increasing the number of total light sources. This not only keeps par and spectrum more consistent throughout the tank (much like T5 do) but also allows you to run lights at a lower percentage as well.

Personally I didn't upgrade to LED to "save money" as by purchasing what I feel is an adequate number of LED units, I actually have spent more than a T5 or halide unit.... I upgraded to save from having to order replacement bulbs several times a year. I just don't want to depend on having to order bulbs, and then dispose of old bulbs, and store replacement bulbs etc.... it is far easier for me to buy a quality built LED until, and not worry about bulbs for a good 4 years or more.

So in conclusion while user error def plays into LED failure, I think too many people don't utilize enough actual light modules over their tanks, and thus as coral begin to grow they end up getting shaded, either physically shaded or possibly spectrum drop off due to the beam-like nature of LED lights. More pucks to me will just lead to better overall spectrum spread, leading to more "consistent" results. But again this is all personal, time will tell