Mini cycle
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a sixty page work thread for tank transfers I worked
www.reef2reef.com
to arrive at what I said about your transfer, I ran those first.
one way to vet information is to look for work done in transferring other people's tanks, and how those results turned out
how much ammonia testing did we do there? none.
how much doubt in the rock's filter bacteria did we ever have there? none.
I honestly believe following advice from the only tank transfer work thread on the internet is a good bet.
a hyperfocus on ammonia, which is not a problem here, but is often warned of by advocates of old cycling science/no transfer work/ is about to be one wild goose chase that's for sure. purchases, testing and counter testing, doubt, and you will keep that cycle doubt for the rest of your reefing after their training.
but that whole thread above: testless reef tank work and no testing for nine years and excellent results and no losses, no mini cycles. not everyone has low pH to be saved, we're honestly controlling ammonia there with the rules I stated earlier.
Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread
If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...
www.reef2reef.com
to arrive at what I said about your transfer, I ran those first.
one way to vet information is to look for work done in transferring other people's tanks, and how those results turned out
how much ammonia testing did we do there? none.
how much doubt in the rock's filter bacteria did we ever have there? none.
I honestly believe following advice from the only tank transfer work thread on the internet is a good bet.
a hyperfocus on ammonia, which is not a problem here, but is often warned of by advocates of old cycling science/no transfer work/ is about to be one wild goose chase that's for sure. purchases, testing and counter testing, doubt, and you will keep that cycle doubt for the rest of your reefing after their training.
but that whole thread above: testless reef tank work and no testing for nine years and excellent results and no losses, no mini cycles. not everyone has low pH to be saved, we're honestly controlling ammonia there with the rules I stated earlier.
Is this a boast, or an admission of neglect?
never failed a seneye audit, and the results show it. avoiding the jobs altogether, to never be accountable to anything doesnt evolve cycling science at all, the trait brings no new findings we can use to improve efficiencies.
if there were ammonia problems, we'd have consequences after nine years work and new jobs in progress right now in chat.
I'm amazed you think that for nine years nobody's pH could ever be high, in any setting we finalized. its amazing those pages of pure tank control aren't proof enough. people who don't make work threads think you can luck into every job outcome apparently.
if there were ammonia problems, we'd have consequences after nine years work and new jobs in progress right now in chat.
I'm amazed you think that for nine years nobody's pH could ever be high, in any setting we finalized. its amazing those pages of pure tank control aren't proof enough. people who don't make work threads think you can luck into every job outcome apparently.
we have no data so far that shows ammonia coming from reef tank sandbeds and staying high for four days, in the presence of perfect live rock.
we have, in the pictures of the tank, the exact expected results from moving fully cycled rocks from one tank to another.
we aren't debating tank symptoms, nothing has died, those corals are open/normal etc. we're debating what an nh4 test kit reads. that's the trend for false ammonia alerts, I've noted.
Bean and Garf are saying there's a time where fully cycled live rocks will leave free ammonia in the tank unused, just below lethality level for animals, but not enough to cause a crash, for four days.
They're saying that after reading a ten page thread where 15 seneye tanks showed what happened when you actually dose heavy test loads into reefs with cycled live rock, like this tank has.
summary: Bean and Garf have never seen cycled display rocks lose ammonia control ability, that's why we didn't get a link for that where they were posting in the thread.
even if a sandbed contains ammonia, it doesn't leak it for four days upon transfer above the rate the live rocks can process, or it would have been leaking continually into the old tank superseding it's cycle ability as well.
that's the rule discovered by actually doing the work. the risk in the sandbed is the clouding, but ammonia isn't the harmful compound. we don't know what it is, yet. likely mixed states of decay and lysed bacterial compounds / whatever constitutes reef tank clouding is what the harm is
there is a reason why the ammonia line on a cycling chart is the first to drop before other params, and it never rises back up on the charts.
we have, in the pictures of the tank, the exact expected results from moving fully cycled rocks from one tank to another.
we aren't debating tank symptoms, nothing has died, those corals are open/normal etc. we're debating what an nh4 test kit reads. that's the trend for false ammonia alerts, I've noted.
Bean and Garf are saying there's a time where fully cycled live rocks will leave free ammonia in the tank unused, just below lethality level for animals, but not enough to cause a crash, for four days.
They're saying that after reading a ten page thread where 15 seneye tanks showed what happened when you actually dose heavy test loads into reefs with cycled live rock, like this tank has.
summary: Bean and Garf have never seen cycled display rocks lose ammonia control ability, that's why we didn't get a link for that where they were posting in the thread.
even if a sandbed contains ammonia, it doesn't leak it for four days upon transfer above the rate the live rocks can process, or it would have been leaking continually into the old tank superseding it's cycle ability as well.
that's the rule discovered by actually doing the work. the risk in the sandbed is the clouding, but ammonia isn't the harmful compound. we don't know what it is, yet. likely mixed states of decay and lysed bacterial compounds / whatever constitutes reef tank clouding is what the harm is
there is a reason why the ammonia line on a cycling chart is the first to drop before other params, and it never rises back up on the charts.
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Another excellent edit, and not what I said at all. You seem to change facts at will, which is a little scary to be honest.
let's maintain focus though vs distraction
this is a tank transfer work thread
I gave feedback, and I linked hundreds of tank transfer jobs the feedback came from. I haven't linked the cycling threads my cycle advice came from, I'm here to help based on experience and outcomes on file.
Don't run another ammonia test on this reef as long as those are the rocks in the tank, is my final offer Alicia. you can't have an ammonia issue today, you might have had one 3 days ago but not today, because that much live rock will never allow a hovering high amount of ammonia just shy of lethality, with no renewed input source, for four days on end. You are being taught unjustified fear and risk but you aren't being shown counter links where tanks had ammonia issues for four days with years-old live rock in place, you're only seeing the opposite of that in the links and in your tank pics.
those pics are not of a distressed reef. your entire thread is built solely on the readout from an nh4 test kit fueled by false fear from old cycling science umpires. if we reverse that, stop the testing and apply only updated cycling science that runs the sand rinse thread, your tank here is simply cruising along.
expect some new algae challenges though, maybe dinos due to light power not reduced here + nutrient upwell. there is a very very high chance that by summertime, GHA is a real concern here.
*if we read the official tank transfer thread, we lower the light levels on all final assemblies and ramp back up slowly over week's time.
we are long past the ammonia concern stage in managing this reef tank remotely.
your risk here is mass invasion outbreaks by July, based on precedent. you should lower your overall lighting level from where it's at now, by -20%, because we did that for nine years with great results above and when I used to not do light ramping, we had occasional problems.
this is a tank transfer work thread
I gave feedback, and I linked hundreds of tank transfer jobs the feedback came from. I haven't linked the cycling threads my cycle advice came from, I'm here to help based on experience and outcomes on file.
Don't run another ammonia test on this reef as long as those are the rocks in the tank, is my final offer Alicia. you can't have an ammonia issue today, you might have had one 3 days ago but not today, because that much live rock will never allow a hovering high amount of ammonia just shy of lethality, with no renewed input source, for four days on end. You are being taught unjustified fear and risk but you aren't being shown counter links where tanks had ammonia issues for four days with years-old live rock in place, you're only seeing the opposite of that in the links and in your tank pics.
those pics are not of a distressed reef. your entire thread is built solely on the readout from an nh4 test kit fueled by false fear from old cycling science umpires. if we reverse that, stop the testing and apply only updated cycling science that runs the sand rinse thread, your tank here is simply cruising along.
expect some new algae challenges though, maybe dinos due to light power not reduced here + nutrient upwell. there is a very very high chance that by summertime, GHA is a real concern here.
*if we read the official tank transfer thread, we lower the light levels on all final assemblies and ramp back up slowly over week's time.
we are long past the ammonia concern stage in managing this reef tank remotely.
your risk here is mass invasion outbreaks by July, based on precedent. you should lower your overall lighting level from where it's at now, by -20%, because we did that for nine years with great results above and when I used to not do light ramping, we had occasional problems.
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Brandon - several of us with decades of exerpeince are trying to help a fellow member of the community with their tank and do so in a straight forward and logical manner. You are making it very complicated and that is unfortunate.
Please stop referencing other threads "work", "jobs", etc. demanding proof or whatever comes next. There is absolutely no need and it is only confusing the issue as are the walls of text.
The OP has an ammonia reading, in error or not, given the circumstances it is a reasonable reading and steps should be taking to verify it and/or mitigate it. It is a simple set of steps.
Please stop referencing other threads "work", "jobs", etc. demanding proof or whatever comes next. There is absolutely no need and it is only confusing the issue as are the walls of text.
The OP has an ammonia reading, in error or not, given the circumstances it is a reasonable reading and steps should be taking to verify it and/or mitigate it. It is a simple set of steps.
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It is simultaneously possible for you to give your advice and someone else to give theirs that doesn't necessarily mesh with your own. A consensus is not mandatory nor are you an arbiter of it.
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Absolutely! I would not have it any other way.
The issue is not the advice, but rather the response to those who do not agree.
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if I'm reading correctly and literally, those who make actual tank transfer work threads aren't qualified to give the rules of effective tank transfer, ammonia dynamics within reef tank transfers, risks involved and non-risks
as a consequence to dealing in bad science that only gets positive results for years on end, across any subject matter of reef tank cycling, only the bad rules are going to continue to get stacked positive results in the work threads as reported by tank owners, and at the same time the 'good rules' will not be put into use in new work threads on tank transfers, or reef cycling, by the critics to prove they are good repeatable rules. got it.
that's convenient
as a consequence to dealing in bad science that only gets positive results for years on end, across any subject matter of reef tank cycling, only the bad rules are going to continue to get stacked positive results in the work threads as reported by tank owners, and at the same time the 'good rules' will not be put into use in new work threads on tank transfers, or reef cycling, by the critics to prove they are good repeatable rules. got it.
that's convenient
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What is the ammonia level now, Alicia?
Don't bother using Prime. There's no evidence it is useful.
Don't bother using Prime. There's no evidence it is useful.
Funniest typo I've seen for a while, lol
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Now I don’t want to fix it!
At your pH that equates to 0.04ish ppm free ammonia, thus;
Free Ammonia Calculator
Aquarium calculator; Estimate the free (un-ionized) ammonia (NH3) concentration, given the total ammonia concentration.
www.hamzasreef.com
I would just make sure the circulation pumps are working, the water temperature is good and the salinity is correct. I think your coral will be just fine to be honest, then check again tomorrow. Obviously, if you want to do another waterchange, you can do that.
Garf how about this option
your take is that in cycling threads ran without testing, using solely timelines of submersion for the surface area at hand, there really is ammonia but we keep getting lucky by default low pH in every tank worked.
that implies someone here has seen instances online in prior troubleshoots they worked where ammonia control wasn't in place, ignoring it didn't/couldn't work, the pH was high, and you saw free ammonia rise to kill organisms in the tank due to lack of or a stalled or partial cycle in a reef tank display.
if we don't see an example of that, from anyone, what does that mean about implied worst case scenarios given by warning here to the OP?
I realize some stretches will have to be made, such as we must accept any stated cycling tank loss as an ammonia-caused one, there can't be acclimation variables in play, or disease from skipping all required actions in the disease forum, or unstated causes like contaminants a new keeper wouldn't know to regard.
I realize every malady in a new fish tank will be blamed on cycling ammonia, but let's see everyone's loss threads where a new reef couldn't control it's ammonia and things died and you commented on that, in the thread.
if we still get no examples after setting that low of a bar for the risk outcome, then I say that risk outcome was and is being made up.
make it a thread you posted in though, part of your series of active ammonia consultations + outcomes logged, don't just search a random web thread from 2015 and post that as proof. lets see how often the umpires giving the warnings actually ever see the call irl
I look for them always, and only find the opposite: cycled. you don't see me telling a lot of reefers their cycle isn't done, that's for a reason. let's see your encounters.
what Dan_P is going to do with a seneye will change reef tank cycling rules in one way or another. his findings on various cycling aspects over time will either quickly end current debates or present new proofs, darn hard to disagree with. I'm wondering how much sting his findings are going to convey to me heh. what his meter says I will accept fully.
topics include hopefully revealed:
-starvation details for cycled rocks, ability to reduce ammonia control function over food withheld / timeframes at hand.
-air time/stress tests for cycled materials, how long bioslicks on cycled surfaces hold enough water to prevent airtime from killing the cycle.
-methods to determine whether or not old reef tank sandbeds have stores of free ammonia to liberate like shale oil.
-timing for various cycles: skip cycles, bottle bac cycles, feed only with no bottle bac cycles, fully unassisted cycles.
his work and Taricha's work will change reef tank cycling science for sure.
your take is that in cycling threads ran without testing, using solely timelines of submersion for the surface area at hand, there really is ammonia but we keep getting lucky by default low pH in every tank worked.
that implies someone here has seen instances online in prior troubleshoots they worked where ammonia control wasn't in place, ignoring it didn't/couldn't work, the pH was high, and you saw free ammonia rise to kill organisms in the tank due to lack of or a stalled or partial cycle in a reef tank display.
if we don't see an example of that, from anyone, what does that mean about implied worst case scenarios given by warning here to the OP?
I realize some stretches will have to be made, such as we must accept any stated cycling tank loss as an ammonia-caused one, there can't be acclimation variables in play, or disease from skipping all required actions in the disease forum, or unstated causes like contaminants a new keeper wouldn't know to regard.
I realize every malady in a new fish tank will be blamed on cycling ammonia, but let's see everyone's loss threads where a new reef couldn't control it's ammonia and things died and you commented on that, in the thread.
if we still get no examples after setting that low of a bar for the risk outcome, then I say that risk outcome was and is being made up.
make it a thread you posted in though, part of your series of active ammonia consultations + outcomes logged, don't just search a random web thread from 2015 and post that as proof. lets see how often the umpires giving the warnings actually ever see the call irl
I look for them always, and only find the opposite: cycled. you don't see me telling a lot of reefers their cycle isn't done, that's for a reason. let's see your encounters.
what Dan_P is going to do with a seneye will change reef tank cycling rules in one way or another. his findings on various cycling aspects over time will either quickly end current debates or present new proofs, darn hard to disagree with. I'm wondering how much sting his findings are going to convey to me heh. what his meter says I will accept fully.
topics include hopefully revealed:
-starvation details for cycled rocks, ability to reduce ammonia control function over food withheld / timeframes at hand.
-air time/stress tests for cycled materials, how long bioslicks on cycled surfaces hold enough water to prevent airtime from killing the cycle.
-methods to determine whether or not old reef tank sandbeds have stores of free ammonia to liberate like shale oil.
-timing for various cycles: skip cycles, bottle bac cycles, feed only with no bottle bac cycles, fully unassisted cycles.
his work and Taricha's work will change reef tank cycling science for sure.
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