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HotRocks
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If you are treating with copper, yes. RO is necessary.
brwaldbaum
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All dechlorinators are out? Does that mean that anyone who uses a salt mix containing thiosulfate can't use chelated copper?
Sorry about your troubles Wowkuh. I always set up my hospital tanks by taking established Marine Pure balls or blocks from another tank to make sure the new tank is cycled or at least gets a good jump start on the cycle. Your fish are already sick so taking some cycled media from the main display to start the sick tank cycle shouldn't make much difference as you will be treating the tank and media anyway. If you don't have established tank media from a parasite free tank or the main display anymore, maybe you have a friend with a cycled tank? I then ramp up the copper slowly so as not to destroy the cycle (or the fish) by adding the full dose of copper right away. More sensitive fish don't handle the full dose of copper well all at once. I like using Copper Power. Good luck!
Be aware that some types of media will absorb some copper so you have to keep a close eye on copper levels every day.
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Good question. Anyone have an answer for this one?
BTW, I always use well water/tap for my sick tanks because I just can't make enough RODI to keep up with my 180 gal, two 30 gal, 29gal BioCube, and my 20 gal lionfish tank. If you have access to RODI for your sick tank, that is the first and best option! If you're like me and can't make enough RODI water for both a sick tank and your regular displays then... Depending on the quality of well water, it can be used in a pinch. Corals seem to stress the most when untreated tap water is used. Most fish are hardier. Keep in mind that unwanted elements in well water can and will stress fish too on top of any treatment, so it's important to know the quality of your well water. The only way to know the quality of well water is to have it tested. I have successfully treated fish in copper and CP in untreated well water for many years.
I am not recommending you use untreated well water! I'm just letting you know it can be done in emergency situations.
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Well here in las Vegas. I have no well lol. Is just tap and RO. RO is just a pain since I don't have a RO at my house I have to go to the LFS, For my non bio filtered 90g hospital tank. And doing a 50% WC every few days with RO from my LFS is gonna suck.
Soooooo plans are.... (And please tell if is this is cool) I have a few small pieces of LR in my HOB to hopefully help jump start cycle. I have a sponge filter being shipped. And will add that as soon as I get it. For now use tap water with seachem safe to control ammonia (via WC or an unexpected spike) until the tank is cycled. From there start copper treatment and WC/top off will be RO from that point forward..thoughts?
@HotRocks @4FordFamily @Sashaka @Maritimer
In case you guys aren't aware of my situation. I've employed ich management for a year now and prefer ich eradication. So my DT is going fallow. My fish are thick and healthy and been dealing with ich (well the ones that didn't die lol)
Soooooo plans are.... (And please tell if is this is cool) I have a few small pieces of LR in my HOB to hopefully help jump start cycle. I have a sponge filter being shipped. And will add that as soon as I get it. For now use tap water with seachem safe to control ammonia (via WC or an unexpected spike) until the tank is cycled. From there start copper treatment and WC/top off will be RO from that point forward..thoughts?
@HotRocks @4FordFamily @Sashaka @Maritimer
In case you guys aren't aware of my situation. I've employed ich management for a year now and prefer ich eradication. So my DT is going fallow. My fish are thick and healthy and been dealing with ich (well the ones that didn't die lol)
The others members you've tagged are much more able to give advice than me as they have been my support in the past. While you wait for one of them to answer, I can say that live rock WILL help jump start the cycle, but it is NOT the best way to go. If you have velvet in the tank, you don't have time to wait before treating, so water changes are probably your best bet. If you have ick, you have a bit more time to get cycled, as you know.
Why isn't live rock a good way to go? The rock will absorb the copper treatment and will basically become unusable for the main display ever again. That's why I use Marine Pure in my sumps. It's easier to clean up from copper. If you have media (floss, etc.) in the HOB filter, I would use that instead. It's less expensive to toss later.
If you do decide to use the live rock, you'll still need to watch for cycle spikes as you will have disturbed the bacteria on the live rock with the change of tanks. You will also need to worry about the rock releasing copper during treatment if the PH drops - rising your copper levels to lethal levels quickly. That's why I would not use it. There are different live bacteria in a bottle you can buy at your LFS or online, but the cycle still needs time to become stable using them so watching levels closely is important.
If live rock is the only thing you have and you decide to chance it, check copper levels more than once a day. Either way, get an ammonia alert badge and remember to check the badge daily, and at least do morning and nightly copper checks to closely monitor copper levels in the tank. Good luck! I hope you're able to save the rest of your fish.
Why isn't live rock a good way to go? The rock will absorb the copper treatment and will basically become unusable for the main display ever again. That's why I use Marine Pure in my sumps. It's easier to clean up from copper. If you have media (floss, etc.) in the HOB filter, I would use that instead. It's less expensive to toss later.
If you do decide to use the live rock, you'll still need to watch for cycle spikes as you will have disturbed the bacteria on the live rock with the change of tanks. You will also need to worry about the rock releasing copper during treatment if the PH drops - rising your copper levels to lethal levels quickly. That's why I would not use it. There are different live bacteria in a bottle you can buy at your LFS or online, but the cycle still needs time to become stable using them so watching levels closely is important.
If live rock is the only thing you have and you decide to chance it, check copper levels more than once a day. Either way, get an ammonia alert badge and remember to check the badge daily, and at least do morning and nightly copper checks to closely monitor copper levels in the tank. Good luck! I hope you're able to save the rest of your fish.
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I dont have velvet. Just ich, which when I transferred my fish to QT they didn't have any ich on them. But I'll still treat them, especially since I have live rock from DT. Once I get the sponge filter and LR running a while. I'll remove the LR and rely on the sponge filter for bio, and use RO for topoff and WC. Then start copper. And BTW I do have an ammonia badge.
Awesome! Sounds like you're all set. Ramp copper up slowly and you'll be good to go.
BTW: I have four fish in quarantine right now...new purchases last week: Hippo Tang, Red Sea Raccoon butterfly, Starry Eyed Blenny, and a blue streak cleaner wrasse. I wanted the fish to get used to my water and be eating well before I started treatment. They're itching, but no visible signs of ick or velvet yet. I'll be starting copper this week too. I love my High Range digital Hanna Copper test kit. It is SO much more accurate than the API test kit I used to use.
BTW: I have four fish in quarantine right now...new purchases last week: Hippo Tang, Red Sea Raccoon butterfly, Starry Eyed Blenny, and a blue streak cleaner wrasse. I wanted the fish to get used to my water and be eating well before I started treatment. They're itching, but no visible signs of ick or velvet yet. I'll be starting copper this week too. I love my High Range digital Hanna Copper test kit. It is SO much more accurate than the API test kit I used to use.
Do not try to use ammonia reducers with copper - I know for certain that Prime will convert copper to a far more toxic form, and while I have no experience or specific info on others, I can't recommend them in good conscience.
I've found that Bio-Spira in a Fluval / Aqua-Clear 110 HOB filter can produce a pretty good colony of nitrifying bacteria within a very few days. You don't even _want_ to know how many fish are in my 40-B QT right now, after Black Friday at several LFS, and for the most part they're doing well; the ammonia badge is rock-solid at yellow. I don't use the "ceramic noodles" or the carbon in the filter, but I do double up on the sponge inserts.
~Bruce
I've found that Bio-Spira in a Fluval / Aqua-Clear 110 HOB filter can produce a pretty good colony of nitrifying bacteria within a very few days. You don't even _want_ to know how many fish are in my 40-B QT right now, after Black Friday at several LFS, and for the most part they're doing well; the ammonia badge is rock-solid at yellow. I don't use the "ceramic noodles" or the carbon in the filter, but I do double up on the sponge inserts.
~Bruce
Here's another thought fellas. Since prime/safe stays active for appx 48hrs. Whats your thought about aged tap water? Basically. Tap water + safe/prime + salt mix + 48hrs ageing.. And then doing a water change.
Sorry, but I'll save money and time by doing this if its a possibility. Again. This is just for QT.
Sorry, but I'll save money and time by doing this if its a possibility. Again. This is just for QT.
Which salt brand are you using? I haven't heard of any salts containing thiosulfate. Is it sodium thiosulfate? It really depends on the amount used in the salt and pH of the water.
If it's a small amount, it should react a lot slower and need more time for dechlorination vs something like Prime. I think you would be OK, but this could be a huge issue. Can you find out the exact amount of thiosulfate?
brwaldbaum
Active Member
IO. This link claims many salt mixes contain thiosulfate: https://reefs.com/magazine/evaluating-synthetic-sea-salts/
I'd just like to know if all dechlorinators are a problem and, if so, why they're a problem.
If you’re using IO, I can tell you that you’ll be fine using copper as I’ve used it for over 10 years with copper. I did not know it contained thiosulfate. Must be a low dose of sodium thiosulfate. I reached out to randy and I’ll post back here.
If you are treating with ionic copper such as Cupramine, then ammonia reducers like prime can create a big issue as they will make your therapeutic dose of 0.5 turn into 5!!!!
DEAD FISH! Copper is a poison and the fish die from overdose. Imagine talking 500 mg of Tylenol and then realize you just took 5,000 mg’s. Opps....
I personally would not advise you to use it with chelated copper either. Just control ammonia with water changes and stay away from the ammonia reducers.
I've used aged tapwater in a pinch, without the ammonia reducer - but our water department doesn't use chloramines. Could not recommend it, though.
~Bruce
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