Myths and Misinformation - fish edition

[Jay Hemdal]

naw... I mean something more like this. On gross you could probably see fibrosis, but you wouldn't see copper granules without special tissue staining and a strong microscope.

Gross examination can only tell us so much. I 100% believe that you have spent a lot of time thinking about this subject, but honestly the only thing I can say from your picture is that there's a dead fish in the background. Otherwise it's kinda a "post hoc ergo ad hoc" sort of problem where you can say anything the fish experienced years ago is the cause of death.

But more importantly the liver is typically super charged in terms of it's ability to regenerate. If it doesn't kill you straight off, liver damage usually needs to be a chronic insult to cause health problems... but I've been wrong before. If data comes out that says I'm idiot, I'll recant and apologize. For now, I'm siding with the guy who has sent the liver out for professional analysis.

There is, I feel, a subjective "quick check" for fatty liver disease - I've noticed over the years, that there is a positive correlation with samples sent out for histopath coming back with reports of fatty degeneration if the sample floated when placed in the NBF fixative. I then noticed these same samples tended to float in seawater, while healthy liver tissue slowly sinks.

I had this grand idea to set up a series of solutions with varying density. Then, placing pieces of liver into each solution to find the "floating point". Then, send those liver samples out to get histopathology done. Finally, I would correlate the different liver densities with their corresponding level of lipidosis. The hope was that I could eventually measure lipidosis by floatation, and not need to send samples out for very expensive histo, that takes 6+ weeks to get back. However, I didn't get that project done before I retired.....

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Its late here Jay, 1:40 AM

I am aware of your work as cited, and use this myself as a point of reference in my own exploration of nutrition within the 5 kingdoms of aquatic animal welfare. I felt this baseline study may provide an holistic view of the subject.

Have a good evening and enjoy the time with your grandson.

Tony.

Regarding the welfare angle, I've been looking into that as it applies to fishes. Do you mean the "five freedoms" or the "five domains". The former is the older term, often used in the UK. It is gradually being replaced by the latter term, with some subtle differences. This is a pretty decent analysis:

Five Domains vs. Five Freedoms of Animal Welfare

One of the original animal welfare concepts, the “Five Freedoms,” has increasingly been found to be limited in its assumption that the absence of (or “freedom” from) negative states would ensure high welfare. The more modern animal welfare concept of the Five Domains considers nutrition...

www.worldanimalprotection.us

Jay

 

[Pankney72]

There is, I feel, a subjective "quick check" for fatty liver disease - I've noticed over the years, that there is a positive correlation with samples sent out for histopath coming back with reports of fatty degeneration if the sample floated when placed in the NBF fixative. I then noticed these same samples tended to float in seawater, while healthy liver tissue slowly sinks.

I had this grand idea to set up a series of solutions with varying density. Then, placing pieces of liver into each solution to find the "floating point". Then, send those liver samples out to get histopathology done. Finally, I would correlate the different liver densities with their corresponding level of lipidosis. The hope was that I could eventually measure lipidosis by floatation, and not need to send samples out for very expensive histo, that takes 6+ weeks to get back. However, I didn't get that project done before I retired.....

Jay

hahaha that sounds like something I'd come up with. Makes sense though. you might find yourself with a bit of a bell curve as steatohepatitis transitions to fibrosis... but cirrhosis you can see with the naked eye usually.

That would be an interesting as a tool to compare different captive environments/diets to health. Maybe someone with a bit funding and/or access to lots and lots of fish could run that data and publish a little study... and since the fish is already open, go ahead and see how the swim bladder is working in fish with a little extra hepatic buoyancy.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

hahaha that sounds like something I'd come up with. Makes sense though. you might find yourself with a bit of a bell curve as steatohepatitis transitions to fibrosis... but cirrhosis you can see with the naked eye usually.

That would be an interesting as a tool to compare different captive environments/diets to health. Maybe someone with a bit funding and/or access to lots and lots of fish could run that data and publish a little study... and since the fish is already open, go ahead and see how the swim bladder is working in fish with a little extra hepatic buoyancy.

I never took it as far as looking at the volume of the swim bladder as it might be compensating for increased liver tissue floatation….mostly because my “slice and dice” necropsy technique pretty much trashes the swim bladder (grin).
Jay

 

[Tony Thompson]

Regarding the welfare angle, I've been looking into that as it applies to fishes. Do you mean the "five freedoms" or the "five domains". The former is the older term, often used in the UK. It is gradually being replaced by the latter term, with some subtle differences. This is a pretty decent analysis:

Five Domains vs. Five Freedoms of Animal Welfare

One of the original animal welfare concepts, the “Five Freedoms,” has increasingly been found to be limited in its assumption that the absence of (or “freedom” from) negative states would ensure high welfare. The more modern animal welfare concept of the Five Domains considers nutrition...

www.worldanimalprotection.us

Jay

Yes sorry it was late at night and I had been discussing kingdoms with reference to algae and cyanobacteria.

My studies are through the Aquatic Animal Welfare program run by Dr Rob Jones (B.V.Sc. (Hons), MACVSc. (Aquatic Animal Health), M.Aquaculture)

The aquatic animal welfare program was an integral part of my professional protocols I applied in my little reef store. Along with my CEFAS ( Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science) and DEFRA licencing commitments. As a minimum we are also required to have a (reviewed and inspected) pet store licence here in the UK and be registered with a veterinarian practice.

Unfortunately due to the war in Ukraine and the economic fallout here in the UK, I recently had to close my store. I miss it so much.

Here is a picture of my little village reef store before I had to sell up.

 

[lion king]

naw... I mean something more like this. On gross you could probably see fibrosis, but you wouldn't see copper granules without special tissue staining and a strong microscope.

Gross examination can only tell us so much. I 100% believe that you have spent a lot of time thinking about this subject, but honestly the only thing I can say from your picture is that there's a dead fish in the background. Otherwise it's kinda a "post hoc ergo ad hoc" sort of problem where you can say anything the fish experienced years ago is the cause of death.

But more importantly the liver is typically super charged in terms of it's ability to regenerate. If it doesn't kill you straight off, liver damage usually needs to be a chronic insult to cause health problems... but I've been wrong before. If data comes out that says I'm idiot, I'll recant and apologize. For now, I'm siding with the guy who has sent the liver out for professional analysis.

At least I know in my little corner of the world most people have figured out copper is a toxic substance and some species will have deadly consequences when exposed.

I think from now on rather than try and argue with those recommending copper exposure to iionfish, I'll just ask them to post picture of the lion in a years time.

 

[Flame2hawk]

Do you have long term success with fish that you have treated with these methods, and what meds are we talking. While most of my experience is going to be with general cure, praziquantel, or metronidazole in the water column; I have never seen any decrease in immune response or lifespan with any species I used these products on. I can't say the same for copper, formalin, or antibiotics.

I have never used copper or formalin orally or mixed in food. I have used nitrof, metro, kanaplex and prazi, general cure (which is bath metro and prazi) and even cipro. I have had long term success with metro/KP/NitroF mixed together with food. Long term meaning their ailment was cured BUT dont know how it might have impacted longevity.

 

[MnFish1]

At least I know in my little corner of the world most people have figured out copper is a toxic substance and some species will have deadly consequences when exposed.

I think from now on rather than try and argue with those recommending copper exposure to iionfish, I'll just ask them to post picture of the lion in a years time.

Except I'm not sure anyone is talking about exposing lion fish to copper exclusively? You are - but - I think I posted - that its my impression that certain fish do not tolerate copper as well as others. Also - not to ruffle feathers - but - given the lion fish problem - in the Florida, etc waters - I'm not sure that the average hobbyist should own them without some kind of license (and believe me - I'm not a regulation type person)

 

[MnFish1]

I mean from oral dosing, I'm sure in that case you would be more concerned of what injury might occur in an overdose situation. What meds do you use in oral dosing and have you seen any negative long term impacts.

Sorry - missed this - I was talking both about overdose as well as under-dose

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I just came here to say that you guys are all way smarter than me. Carry on!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes sorry it was late at night and I had been discussing kingdoms with reference to algae and cyanobacteria.

My studies are through the Aquatic Animal Welfare program run by Dr Rob Jones (B.V.Sc. (Hons), MACVSc. (Aquatic Animal Health), M.Aquaculture)

The aquatic animal welfare program was an integral part of my professional protocols I applied in my little reef store. Along with my CEFAS ( Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science) and DEFRA licencing commitments. As a minimum we are also required to have a (reviewed and inspected) pet store licence here in the UK and be registered with a veterinarian practice.

Unfortunately due to the war in Ukraine and the economic fallout here in the UK, I recently had to close my store. I miss it so much.

Here is a picture of my little village reef store before I had to sell up.

Yes - I've sat in on a number of Dr. Rob's talks, and he is on some committees that I'm also on. Sorry to hear about your store, the loss of good single-proprietorship stores in the US has been tragic. I had the funds to start a store in my retirement, but the business model just didn't work out - too many "chain stores" and online discount sources to make it viable.

Jay

 

[areefer01]

Yes - I've sat in on a number of Dr. Rob's talks, and he is on some committees that I'm also on. Sorry to hear about your store, the loss of good single-proprietorship stores in the US has been tragic. I had the funds to start a store in my retirement, but the business model just didn't work out - too many "chain stores" and online discount sources to make it viable.

Jay

If people are throwing a fit for the price of captive bred yellow tangs they will complain about paying a premium for properly quarantined fish by vetted sources. It is a no win situation.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

At least I know in my little corner of the world most people have figured out copper is a toxic substance and some species will have deadly consequences when exposed.

I think from now on rather than try and argue with those recommending copper exposure to iionfish, I'll just ask them to post picture of the lion in a years time.

Just to update you - I asked some aquatic vets that I know and also posted on a public aquarium list serve, and nobody has documented delayed mortality from copper, cyanide or formalin in their collections (greater than 1 year post exposure). Acute toxicity from ionic copper is well known, and there are even a paper on liver damage from oral copper, but nothing at all about delayed mortality from a properly performed copper treatment.

This is similar to my hypothesis that carbon use causes HLLE. Nobody believed me about that, and even after I published my study (and Disney published theirs) the carbon connection is still sometimes scoffed at. One difference is though - when I first presented my hypothesis, I had done a survey where about 25% of public aquarists said they had seen the same trend, and had stopped using carbon. That gave me impetus to run my study.

In the end, I have to conclude that until your hypothesis is proven, or until more anecdotal confirmations are compiled, it needs to remain a "what if" sort of thing, and that a proper copper quarantine is much better than the other options.


Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I just came here to say that you guys are all way smarter than me. Carry on!

Agreed LOLOLOL - just kidding

 

[mike550]

Thank you! I have never believed this as I had 50 volts in a tank and everything was fine. I only found out when I got zapped. No one has ever been able to provide any documentation but people keep repeating it. Gotta love the misinfonet.

100% agree on this one! I’ve always viewed it like birds or squirrels on power lines. As long as you aren’t grounded … no problem. This “advice” shows up on R2R more times than it should

 

[bblumberg]

Here are a few recent studies I found:

Acute Copper Toxicity Displays a Nonmonotonic Relationship with Age Across the Medaka (Oryzias latipes) Life Span - PubMed

The ability of an organism to cope with environmental stressors varies across the life span because of developmental stage-specific responses and age-related functional declines. In the present study, we examined the effect of age on acute copper toxicity in Japanese medaka (Oryzias latipes). We...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Transient Copper Exposure During Embryogenesis and Temperature Affect Developmental Rate, Survival, and Fin Regeneration in Japanese Medaka (Oryzias latipes) - PubMed

Combined environmental stressors that an organism experiences can have both immediate and lasting consequences. In the present study, we exposed Japanese medaka (Oryzias latipes) embryos to sublethal copper sulfate (CuSO₄ ; 0, 10, and 100 ppb) in combination with different rearing...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not exactly on point, but the upshot is that exposure to low doses of copper sulfate (up to 500 ppb led to decreased survival of Japanese medaka but that there were windows of greater and lesser sensitivity across the lifespan. Neither study addressed the outcomes that have been discussed here, but are suggestive that there may indeed be such effects.

 

[MnFish1]

Here are a few recent studies I found:

Acute Copper Toxicity Displays a Nonmonotonic Relationship with Age Across the Medaka (Oryzias latipes) Life Span - PubMed

The ability of an organism to cope with environmental stressors varies across the life span because of developmental stage-specific responses and age-related functional declines. In the present study, we examined the effect of age on acute copper toxicity in Japanese medaka (Oryzias latipes). We...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Transient Copper Exposure During Embryogenesis and Temperature Affect Developmental Rate, Survival, and Fin Regeneration in Japanese Medaka (Oryzias latipes) - PubMed

Combined environmental stressors that an organism experiences can have both immediate and lasting consequences. In the present study, we exposed Japanese medaka (Oryzias latipes) embryos to sublethal copper sulfate (CuSO₄ ; 0, 10, and 100 ppb) in combination with different rearing...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not exactly on point, but the upshot is that exposure to low doses of copper sulfate (up to 500 ppb led to decreased survival of Japanese medaka but that there were windows of greater and lesser sensitivity across the lifespan. Neither study addressed the outcomes that have been discussed here, but are suggestive that there may indeed be such effects.

Agreed - not on point. Mainly for the fact that very young fish are much more susceptible than adults. No one (I don't think) - has ever said 'ignore the possible effects of xxxx when you quarantine. Instead I think the philosophy would be - the risk of xxxx with quarantine are less the risk of not using xxxx

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here are a few recent studies I found:

Acute Copper Toxicity Displays a Nonmonotonic Relationship with Age Across the Medaka (Oryzias latipes) Life Span - PubMed

The ability of an organism to cope with environmental stressors varies across the life span because of developmental stage-specific responses and age-related functional declines. In the present study, we examined the effect of age on acute copper toxicity in Japanese medaka (Oryzias latipes). We...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Transient Copper Exposure During Embryogenesis and Temperature Affect Developmental Rate, Survival, and Fin Regeneration in Japanese Medaka (Oryzias latipes) - PubMed

Combined environmental stressors that an organism experiences can have both immediate and lasting consequences. In the present study, we exposed Japanese medaka (Oryzias latipes) embryos to sublethal copper sulfate (CuSO₄ ; 0, 10, and 100 ppb) in combination with different rearing...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not exactly on point, but the upshot is that exposure to low doses of copper sulfate (up to 500 ppb led to decreased survival of Japanese medaka but that there were windows of greater and lesser sensitivity across the lifespan. Neither study addressed the outcomes that have been discussed here, but are suggestive that there may indeed be such effects.

Thanks, I hadn't seen those paper. However, both of them discuss ionic copper in freshwater fish, and that is absolutely the worst combination, it has the highest risk for toxicity. Copper is much less toxic in high carbonate water (seawater) and then, amine-bonded coppers are a whole magnitude less toxic than ionic. (2 ppm to 0.20 ppm)


Jay

 

[HankstankXXL750]

" Nutrition is only the foundation to health"

That is simply not true. Yes energy intake is important to immune function due to its costly nature when one is sick, but energy and macro/micronutrient intake is only one aspect into maintaining a living system. Inflammation, behavior, aggression given/received, stress, rank / social status, social system, the environment, repair mechanics and their triggers, genetics, body/cell regulations, the specific pathogen, etc. all matter. Health is far more complicated than that

Your response seem to take the quote as “Nutrition is THE only foundation to health” I read it as “nutrition is only THE foundation to health”. Read the second way, I take to mean that if you do t provide adequate nutrition survival is limited.

If as a human you eat only pop tarts and coke, you will most likely not be very healthy and have a much harder time fighting disease, infection and injury. So a balanced nutritious diet would be the foundation (building blocks to start from).

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Your response seem to take the quote as “Nutrition is THE only foundation to health” I read it as “nutrition is only THE foundation to health”. Read the second way, I take to mean that if you do t provide adequate nutrition survival is limited.

If as a human you eat only pop tarts and coke, you will most likely not be very healthy and have a much harder time fighting disease, infection and injury. So a balanced nutritious diet would be the foundation (building blocks to start from).

Just to clarify - overall nutrition is important…..long term. For a short term acute issues, it is more about the fish getting sufficient calories - adding vitamins or HUFAs won’t stop diseases.
The trouble is, people think they can control disease through diet, and that isn’t true.
Jay