Nervous Breakdown Tonight!

[Stixbaraca]

Ok, so as the title says I had a complete nervous breakdown tonight! About 2 and half years ago I got my first zoanthid frag! Of course I was hooked as soon as it was placed into my tank. It was a small 10 polyp frag of what some ID as "Neon Greens". It has been growing unfragged since, and now has to be over 200 polyps large, and takes up the whole left side of my tank! I came up with the great idea tonight to frag a nice chunk, and place it in my brand new prop tank (20 gallon long with a 10 gallon sump). The rock that these zoos are growing on is a massive 10"x10" flat type rock with a natural cave opening on the side (really sweet rock). So instead of taking the rock out and bringing it down to the frag table and doing things properly...I decided I was going to make the frag while in the display tank (don't try this at home!) SO I approached the tank with a brand new flat chisel in hand, when my fiancé (god bless her heart for this one) said, "You better be wearing gloves for this"! SO I went down and grabbed a pair of Nitrile gloves...which I normally don't wear of course, and proceeded to reach into the tank and scrape a chunk of zoos off. I couldn't get enough leverage, so I reached my other (left) hand in to get a good hold of the rock so I could take a nice chunk off. I had a nice section scraped off when the chisel slipped, and embedded itself into the side of my pointer finger of the hand holding the rock! Brand new chisel versus pointer finger...put your money on the chisel! It was a razor blade type clean cut, and very deep. A wave of panic raced through my body! It was bleeding fairly well, and my only thoughts were of a negative reaction to Palytoxin! I cleaned it out really good about 5 times, and doused it with peroxide twice before settling on Neosporin and a band-aid! Of course for the next 2-3 hours a panic attack ensued as I read horror story after horror story of the dangers of Palytoxin! 4 hours later now, and countless body temp checks and blood pressure checks (I am a little bit of a hypochondriac) and all seems to be fine! Just thought I would vent about my interesting and night!

Anyone elkse have any interesting stories about dumb things they have done in the tank???

 

[jessiesgrrl]

Wow...

First, I am glad you feel ok! Second, if palytoxin is indeed a neurotoxin, if you haven't felt it by now, you aren't probably going to. Feel happy you weren't fragging grandis with the strong stuff like A. Calfo.. LOL That story always makes me giggle- he clenched the razor between his teeth when he was short a hand. Poor dude.

I have to side with you though, most of the stupid stuff I have done in my tank I knew better than to do- I was just being lazy at the time foro ne reason or another.

Don't feel alone on this one!! :lol:
Laurie

 

[MarvinsReef]

wow Steve... while I was reading it, I thought you were getting to the point of telling us you busted your tank with the chisel.. whew!

anyway, I'm glad you're okay.. I had a similar experience last Monday while fragging some palys.. I was trying to get a clean cut using a regular razor but forgot to move my middle finger out of harms way.. so long story short, the razor won also and made a decent cut in my finger, which I hurriedly washed with just dishwashing soap.. I was worried I was going to go to ER for the toxins but I was okay also.. another whew!



Marvin

 

[limestro]

wow Steve... while I was reading it, I thought you were getting to the point of telling us you busted your tank with the chisel.. whew!
Marvin

Yeah I was thinking that too. Looks like after further reading the stroy had a Steven Speilberg twist. I hope all is well.

 

[Brandon]

Glad to hear your ok stix

Is it just me or did i read an article somewhere saying not all zoas contain palytoxin, only a few specaies, and those species are rare in aquarium trade....

my dumb thing would be working without gloves and accidentily ticking off a 7 inch bristleworm....needless to say i use gloves everytime now

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Whew.... glad you (and the tank) are ok!

 

[mecold]

I have cut myself when I was fragging before, but never with a chisel. That just sounds a little painful. Also, I am guilty of fragging in the tank as well

 

[surfn]

i know alot of people say they have had experience with palytoxin, and i will have to politely say (coming from a neurochemists point of view) that they are over reacting.

if someone were to have a reaction to palytoxin, they would know it. palytoxin does not interact at neuronal receptors that have anything to do with muscular pain or feeling such as botulinum toxin or tetradotoxin.

without getting one of my neuropathology books out for a reference, i know that palytoxin only interacts with the neuronal receptors in a certain type of neuron in cardiac muscle. and it basically shuts off the ability of the neuron to "communicate" with other neurons in that system. thus causing your heart to stop beating.

other symptoms in this would be temperature and blood pressure. but these variables can also be affected by the are synergistic effects b/w the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. (i.e. nervousness)

basically the right hemisphere of your brain starts to go crazy with fear, which has an direct control over your heart rate and blood pressure via the hypothalamus.

so basically, the true rule of thumb regarding a neurotoxin poisoning such as botulinum toxin, palytoxin, and tetradotoxin, is that if you aren't going into shock (whether cardiac shock for palytoxin, or tetradotoxin or botulinum toxin for muscular shock) in a couple minutes you will be ok.

my guess is that when most people report symptoms that progress for longer than 30min after exposure, this is heavily influenced by the right hemisphere of your brain. you'd be surprised how much psychology can effect your physiology (this is most predominant in psychopaths who have figured out how to control their BP and HR in a violant act). very interesting stuff.

or of course these symtoms could be from thousands of other compounds in the mucos of corals that we have no idea about.

always rinse with hot scalding water (as hot as you can stand) and an antibacterial soap. and do this every 30min or so. peroxide will only help to expell any foreign matter which is good...but wont do much to limit a neurotoxin exposure or "kill" any other bad toxins.

another good example of another marine problem is the stings by lionfish. but these stings which cause severe pain and paralysis in some cases are caused by a venom, not a neurotoxin, which is a big difference in toxicology realms.

anyways...sorry for the rambling.

there seem to be alot of *experts* with no neuropathology, toxicology, or biochemistry background on RC when this issue comes up. so i've tried to bite my tongue as much as possible to prevent any sort of big arguement.

but i guess this will be my one neurotoxicology rant on this site since the subject hasnt come up yet.

if anyone wants to disagree with me thats fine. in the end i dont really care b/c i can sit back and know that i have a degree in biochemistry and concentrated in neurochemistry & neuropathology in graduate school.....

again, not trying to be egotistical or anything...i just think alot of times people blow the whole palytoxin thing out of proportion from too much hearsay and not enough scientific proof.

i can now be at peace that i said this at least once on this forum.

good to hear it wasnt anything too bad. as with any close encounter with metal object keep checking your temp and BP for a couple days for signs of sepsis to make sure you dont need a tetnus booster or anything. but sounds like it was a clean cut. keep your bandages freshly changed to make sure you dont give any bacteria a fighting chance to grow. good luck!

 

[Stixbaraca]

I guess a better made for TV story would have been me slicing throug my finger on the way to punching the chisel through the back of the tank!

Thanks all for the kind words!!!

I think deep down after I made it throgh the first 5-10 minutes I knew I was going to be ok...but it is amazing how powerful the mind is at controlling and dishing out a decent amount of anxiety!

 

[vetteman]

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE..... make sure you video tape your next fragging session :shock: glad your ok

 

[MarvinsReef]

wow.. thanks surfn for the info.. it was a great read..

Marvin

 

[Stixbaraca]

It was very good read and extremely informative. It is funny how everyone does try and become an expert! I think your background speaks for itself!

 

[minibowmatt]

Geez Steve, glad your ok.... how did the frag turn out? i bet the skimmer went nuts taking the blood from the water! LOL

 

[twon8]

i know alot of people say they have had experience with palytoxin, and i will have to politely say (coming from a neurochemists point of view) that they are over reacting.

if someone were to have a reaction to palytoxin, they would know it. palytoxin does not interact at neuronal receptors that have anything to do with muscular pain or feeling such as botulinum toxin or tetradotoxin.

without getting one of my neuropathology books out for a reference, i know that palytoxin only interacts with the neuronal receptors in a certain type of neuron in cardiac muscle. and it basically shuts off the ability of the neuron to "communicate" with other neurons in that system. thus causing your heart to stop beating.

other symptoms in this would be temperature and blood pressure. but these variables can also be affected by the are synergistic effects b/w the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. (i.e. nervousness)

basically the right hemisphere of your brain starts to go crazy with fear, which has an direct control over your heart rate and blood pressure via the hypothalamus.

so basically, the true rule of thumb regarding a neurotoxin poisoning such as botulinum toxin, palytoxin, and tetradotoxin, is that if you aren't going into shock (whether cardiac shock for palytoxin, or tetradotoxin or botulinum toxin for muscular shock) in a couple minutes you will be ok.

my guess is that when most people report symptoms that progress for longer than 30min after exposure, this is heavily influenced by the right hemisphere of your brain. you'd be surprised how much psychology can effect your physiology (this is most predominant in psychopaths who have figured out how to control their BP and HR in a violant act). very interesting stuff.

or of course these symtoms could be from thousands of other compounds in the mucos of corals that we have no idea about.

always rinse with hot scalding water (as hot as you can stand) and an antibacterial soap. and do this every 30min or so. peroxide will only help to expell any foreign matter which is good...but wont do much to limit a neurotoxin exposure or "kill" any other bad toxins.

another good example of another marine problem is the stings by lionfish. but these stings which cause severe pain and paralysis in some cases are caused by a venom, not a neurotoxin, which is a big difference in toxicology realms.

anyways...sorry for the rambling.

there seem to be alot of *experts* with no neuropathology, toxicology, or biochemistry background on RC when this issue comes up. so i've tried to bite my tongue as much as possible to prevent any sort of big arguement.

but i guess this will be my one neurotoxicology rant on this site since the subject hasnt come up yet.

if anyone wants to disagree with me thats fine.

I'll actually agree with you, and add that if one was to get exposed to paylotoxin they will almost certainly die, as the lethal dose is so small. Overblown risk imo, but there is nothing wrong with universal precautions. treat everything as if there were a risk to be infected.

 

[gflat65]

I thought you were going to say the tank broke, too.

Surf posted some numbers on palytoxin testing in rats. When I figured out how much a 200# person would need in their system for toxicity (using mg/g or somethign along those lines), it came out around 15 or 16 grams, if I remember correctly. That beiong the case, you almost have to dump a bunch of zoas into a blender and use it as neosporin for some deep cuts...

I have had some incidents after fragging for long periods of time where my arm might go numb, followed by a euphoric dizziness. Something in zoas can wreak havoc, just not sure what it is. Didn't mind the euphoric dizziness a whole lot, though .

 

[Zeppelin]

I've had 2 incidents of zoanthid toxin, with the same zoos, recently. Multiple large rocks of the radioactive dragon eyes.

Glad your OK. I was waiting for the 'tank broke' sentence while reading it also.

 

[surfn]

I'll actually agree with you, and add that if one was to get exposed to paylotoxin they will almost certainly die, as the lethal dose is so small. Overblown risk imo, but there is nothing wrong with universal precautions. treat everything as if there were a risk to be infected.

absolutely, there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with being overly cautious, even if the threat isnt that great.


GFLAT...ya know, that is a very good question about the LD rates. i've read a couple of articles by aquarists, that say they googled palytoxin and found an LD, and they are always different. and each instance i've attempted to look up the LD for palytoxin (and a couple of others), i see to see conflicting reports depending on who did the testing and where the sample was drawn. there is a link which i posted on RC before, which reported the LD's for the most potent neurotoxins they have ever tested. i'm at work, and dont have the link handy, but will pull it up when i get home. for me, i cant trust just anything i see on the internet, only reputable scientific journals, or anything published by the military (b/c you know they have tested all known neurotoxins for possible implementation into biological weapons...so i trust that LD data to be very accurate IMO).

i also had a good discussion going on with jreimer, about the % of known palytoxin in a given zoa/paly. and apparently there has not been one study published about that. so in that retrospect, i'm just as clueless about it as the next person. but i cant imagine why no one has tried to figure that out. my guess is that palytoxin has no medical/weapon usage, thus no incentive for studying it. there must be something about it that makes it very unstable and difficult to use in a controlled setting or something. i have no clue.


i have only had 1 strange incident. and it was the first thermos frag swap we did back in june. i got some green button polyps from rmhuntly. i took them out the bag with my hands without thinking. they were slimed up A TON. i immidiately felt a sharp tingling pain as soon as i touched them. put them in the tank, and my thumb and index finger started to go numb. so i immediately ran it under hot water, used alot of soap and i actually rinsed it with some bedadine i had laying around (medical grade iodine disinfectant they use to prep skin for surgery type stuff). the strange sensation went away after about 30min. i seriously doubt this was a reaction to palytoxin, again b/c there are no receptors for palytoxin found anywhere in the epidermis or dermis of the skin. its just not possible, think of trying to put a square peg in a round hole....it just doesnt work that way.

there are so many other chemicals/compounds that have not been discovered in marine life...so my guess is its a reaction to something else. JMO though. I'm not a marine biologist, just a neuro guy...so the info out there regarding palytoxin to human medical applications is very limited (again, there is no use for it...unlike tetradotoxin, botulinum toxin, serin, anthrax, mustard gas, and other acetyl cholinesterase inhibitors which may have a purpose for good or bad).

 

[Azurel]

I read some where in an article that the natives(lack of a better term at the moment) would use the toxin on the tips of their spears and arrows over in the pacific and Asia.....How true it is I'm not sure but I'm sure there are uses for it as most of the indigenous tribes seem to have found ways of using stuff like that....Take dart frogs for example.

 

[surfn]

I read some where in an article that the natives(lack of a better term at the moment) would use the toxin on the tips of their spears and arrows over in the pacific and Asia.....How true it is I'm not sure but I'm sure there are uses for it as most of the indigenous tribes seem to have found ways of using stuff like that....Take dart frogs for example.

yup, thats curarae. they take poison arrow frogs, skin the backs off of them (where the poison sacks are), then stick the skin w/ poison sacks in basically a frying pan over a fire. then the stuff starts to get all bubbly like an oil...then they coat the tips of their spears with it and use that as a weapon. curarae is a very effective paralyzing agent. but it does have some unwanted side effects (possibly brain damage due to an increased body temp). i dont remember specifically what receptor it works on. but it does something to block the action of the neuron interfacing with the muscle fiber. (actin/mysoin ATP binding and all that jazz i cant remember from anatomy). so instead of being paralyzed and "limp". all your muscles contract like you are having a seizure, and you are essentially "frozen".

pretty neat stuff (neat in a nerdy scientific kinda way). cuz i'm cool like that

oh yeah, and i never heard of that kinda stuff being used over in the pacific and asian areas. the most prominant recordings of this being used is south america. i.e. where *most* poison arrow dart frogs can be found.

does anyone else think of homer simpson licking that toad and then getting the acid trip? lol i love that scene.

 

[Azurel]

Sorry I didn't mean the dart frogs are over in asia and pacific. But they use the toxin from zoas like that over in asia and pacific.....