Nervous Breakdown Tonight!

[Stixbaraca]

After reading over and trying to understand here just how Palytoxin works and more importantly how it doesn't work...it seems to me that most of these horror stories we read about could not becaused by Palytoxin, but some other unknown checmical.

 

[jessiesgrrl]

i know alot of people say they have had experience with palytoxin, and i will have to politely say (coming from a neurochemists point of view) that they are over reacting.

if someone were to have a reaction to palytoxin, they would know it. palytoxin does not interact at neuronal receptors that have anything to do with muscular pain or feeling such as botulinum toxin or tetradotoxin.

without getting one of my neuropathology books out for a reference, i know that palytoxin only interacts with the neuronal receptors in a certain type of neuron in cardiac muscle. and it basically shuts off the ability of the neuron to "communicate" with other neurons in that system. thus causing your heart to stop beating.

other symptoms in this would be temperature and blood pressure. but these variables can also be affected by the are synergistic effects b/w the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. (i.e. nervousness)

basically the right hemisphere of your brain starts to go crazy with fear, which has an direct control over your heart rate and blood pressure via the hypothalamus.

so basically, the true rule of thumb regarding a neurotoxin poisoning such as botulinum toxin, palytoxin, and tetradotoxin, is that if you aren't going into shock (whether cardiac shock for palytoxin, or tetradotoxin or botulinum toxin for muscular shock) in a couple minutes you will be ok.

Hey, sounds like you found a reference article or book info specifically on palytoxin! How do I find it, so I can read it? Is it on the web? I really think it would be interesting... the cardiac reference as well. Do you realize how awesome that would be for surgical use??? I've read the usual tribal reference articles, but nothing lab based as of yet.

E.R.s only keep the most common antivenoms on site, because it would be impossible to stock all antivenoms for all poisons and keep them unexpired as well. So, my personal opinoon is when dealing with a known toxin of any strength, precautions are always in order just because it makes sense not to take uneccesary risk, shock or no.

And as for Botox... All the ladies currently using a derivative of botulinum toxin to freeze facial musclulature and 'get rid of' wrinkles atm are in for a nasty surprise in the long haul anyway, imo. FDA studies for it aren't longitudinal, or really more than 9 years out, if I remember correctly. This is basically what happened with Phen-Fen... short term studies seemed ok with the usual bad guy side effects, but when used in humans over the long haul we got cardiac problems. Humans abuse meds and mix them with other meds, rats and test subjects (hopefully) do not... and over time this is telling. JMHO

The further into medicine I get, the more I realize we don't know about the body and the chemical interactions that take place in it.

Laurie

 

[jessiesgrrl]

I read some where in an article that the natives(lack of a better term at the moment) would use the toxin on the tips of their spears and arrows over in the pacific and Asia.....How true it is I'm not sure but I'm sure there are uses for it as most of the indigenous tribes seem to have found ways of using stuff like that....Take dart frogs for example.

No, I do remember seeing that... was of different origin than curare, sorry Surfn I have to side with Az on this one... but I'll look for the reference tonight. But I can definately see how you would make that connection between the two- curare is very commonly taught- is referenced in almost all the introductory Anatomy and Physiology books at least...

Coral poison is very interesting as as topic- I fully expect to see quite a few meds come out of that field (neurotoxin or otherwise). Things that affect animal systems in nature are very rarely confined to only one area- what one animal develops to stave off predation in one area of the world is very likely to show up elsewhere and geographically seperated as another animal deals with the same issues. You know how mathematicians say God thinks in 10's? Well, one of the reasons I believe in God is because wildly different animals are biologically speaking made on very similar game plans- kind of like thinking in 10's. If everything was truly Darwinian alone, it has always made sense to me that different genuses should have evolved out of whatever worked for each, not eerily similar biology/zoology all over the world on different continents...

It's one of the few articles I have seen referenced that were peer reviewed. I think I saw it in a reef mag and looked up the footnote on the web. Somebody tell me why I don't bookmark them all????? (Ok, so I do know after that comment- I'd have a favorites 3 miles long)

:lol:
Laurie

 

[surfn]

And as for Botox... All the ladies currently using a derivative of botulinum toxin to freeze facial musclulature and 'get rid of' wrinkles atm are in for a nasty surprise in the long haul anyway, imo. FDA studies for it aren't longitudinal, or really more than 9 years out, if I remember correctly. This is basically what happened with Phen-Fen... short term studies seemed ok with the usual bad guy side effects, but when used in humans over the long haul we got cardiac problems. Humans abuse meds and mix them with other meds, rats and test subjects (hopefully) do not... and over time this is telling. JMHO

absolutely! botox is a very risky drug. even though it is a dilluted, "killed" toxin, it is also the deadliest known to the world. and its quite easy to get ahold of if you know where it comes from. i remember in my microbiology class a long ago they said that 1mg put into a city water supply, had the potential to whipe out a city. considering that, and how easy it can be obtained/cultured is scary.

i think most people dont even realize that even the cosmetic shot can be deadly, if injected into the right area.

i've honestly never heard of pacific natives using palytoxin, but would absolutely LOVE to read about it if someone can provide a link or how i would go about getting it at a library.

all the books/articles i've read that have referenced palytoxin, none of them have ever mentioned any prevoius/recent use of the chemical. only that it doesnt provide much of a use other than its deadly. but i havent really been on top of reading about neurotoxins in the past 2 years, and hundreds of new researching findings/articles come out every day.

here is the difference though. botulinum toxin is produced by a bacterium. the actual molecule is very ustable, large and bulky and thus breaks apart easily (supposedly). thus, if you are infected with botulinum bacteria, it takes the bacteria a while to culture in your body and produce the toxin. same thing with tetnus toxins, they also come from bacteria, are far more deadly but take some time to be produced by the bacteria.

other neurotoxins, such as palytoxin tetradotoxin (puffer fish), are organophosphates, much smaller, more stable, and quicker acting within seconds to minutes.

if you notice on the link i sent. at the very bottom it says whether Atropin (a known antidote to some neurotoxins) is an effective treatment for acute exposure. Atropine works to block (rather fill up) all receptors that bind acetylcholine in the heart. Thus, the reason why atropine is an effective antitode sometimes to organophosphates like palytoxin, is b/c they only bind to receptors in the heart. The theory behind atropine is to get something to bind to the receptors in the heart before the neurotoxin can, essentially killing you in an essance that can be reversed, as if the neurotoxin kills you that cant be reversed. And by reversed i mean "revived". If all the receptors are filled already, the neurotoxin has no where to bind to.

Atropine doesnt work on tetnus and botulinum toxins b/c those toxins dont target receptors in the heart.

The link is from the Army's Biological Casualties Handbook

http://www.nbc-med.org/SiteContent/MedRef/OnlineRef/FieldManuals/medman/append.htm

 

[Mr. Ugly]

i've honestly never heard of pacific natives using palytoxin, but would absolutely LOVE to read about it if someone can provide a link or how i would go about getting it at a library.

I ran across that reference maybe a couple of years ago. I think in that article they said that palytoxin was xx times more deadly than botulinum.

....

Ok, I think this might be the one I had read.

http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins.htm

 

[surfn]

i've honestly never heard of pacific natives using palytoxin, but would absolutely LOVE to read about it if someone can provide a link or how i would go about getting it at a library.

I ran across that reference maybe a couple of years ago. I think in that article they said that palytoxin was xx times more deadly than botulinum.

....

Ok, I think this might be the one I had read.

http://www.asanltr.com/newsletter/02-2/articles/Neurotoxins.htm

that is a pretty interesting legend. if anyone finds out more info about that i would love to read it.

aside from that. i got out one very important thing out of that article after looking at the references they cited about palytoxin. i'm not saying they are wrong, but the articles they referenced are QUITE old as far as current research goes.

which is a BIG reason everyone is seeing all the conflicting reports about LD50 rates, how toxic it is compared to other toxins, and even the structure. who is right? lol

 

[jessiesgrrl]

Actually, part of being Public Health in the Air Force was that we ran the base chemical warfare clean up/detox tent disaster response team/education prior to patients getting in to the front door of the hospital in the field, or where ever it happened. Sucked. We were also responsible for figuring out immeduiately what the heck we were hit with so we could get on detoxification efforts.... (Can anyone say, lowest ranking airman takes this test kit out to the spooge???)

We did standard issue atropine autoinjectors, but in all actuality the way they are really used in the military (USAF anyhow) is that they come with pills to take prior to exposure, and the two autoinjectors after exposure (2pamchloride,etc). The thought is that the pills are taken when ordered pre-exposure and bind half or more of your neurotransmitters (which basically exposes you to a chemical effects we can 'undo', unlike what you are about to be hit with), after which point (after exposure) you take the two autoinjectors to release the neurotransmitter back into the synapse, which revives you in theory (because the bad stuff bound to the other half of the receptors because the first half were taken when it hit your system and then flushed out hopefully with the body's response to it).
Make some sense?? LOL

You can think of it interms of carbon monoxide poisoning- it takes your body 120 days to turn onver new red blood cells. Carbon monoxide competes with oxygen for the four possible adherent sites on a RBC. Unlike oxygen, it won't let go for some time- like 2 days or so? So what happens is that when breathing the carbon monoxide, in a few minutes all the RBC have it attached at all four points, your body can no longer transport oxygen, and you die. This is also where the reddish tint to the skin comes from. Organophosphates do the same to the nerve's synaptic receptors for acetylcholine among some others depending on the toxin. Frankly, I'd rather go out with botulinum poisoning- nicer by comparison and we might be able to help you depending on on fast they figure it out.

So, in order for the AF plan to work... 1. We have to know it is coming fast enough to order you to take the pills, 2. You have to take ONLY the right amount (And God help any Joe who thinks more is better like Motrin), 3. You have to wait to autoinject both syringes until AFTER the rest of the chem warfare agent is dissipated from your synapses, a 4. You have to be lucid enough to do it when you have to inject... or your buddies had better like you a whole lot.

This is where the teaching comes from in the military that says if your buddy's pupils are dilated and his nose/eyes/mouth are running freely you hit him with the injectors.

I guess almost anything is better than dead. So basically while it does affect the heart, your major problem off the bat isn't going to be primarily cardiac as the AV node, etc is going to fire because of the autonomic use of calcium versus sodium/potassium (and further down the line, acetylcholine among other neurotransmitters possible) as a firing mechanism. The rest of your synapses all over your bodyare NOT going to stop firing because of the fact that acetylcholinesterase does NOT break down the organophosphate binding the receptors, causing them to continually fire without a break- vasoconstriction most likely due to constant firing and body's clamp down fight or flight response. too little, too late.

Jeez, now I sound like a nerd too. Someone buy me a TShirt... but I do *not* do it ona periodic table.... LOL


Laurie

 

[jessiesgrrl]

BTW... The mere fact that that reference article lists palytoxin in the company of the other more well known chemical and biological warfare agents should be enough to cause one to wear gloves when fragging and respect the coral to some extent... jmho.

<grin>
Laurie