Nitrite Toxicity

[brandon429]

The only reason I rely on this thread so much in cycle troubleshoots is so that we have a clear starting point for loss assessments. Nitrite is not where we would start for loss assessments in marine systems, that's the basic takeaway from the sheer mountains of evidence available for nitrite and reefing.


this thread got a bump today because I used it for the 500th time to show a separate source, outside our cycle challenge thread, reaffirming we wouldn't start with nitrite in fish loss assessments especially when bottle bac was added first, ammonia was tracked to bone zero from a much higher starting point for ten days before only 2 fish were added into plenty of dilution. in that thread we discovered some standout acclimation issues and salinity shifting that's for sure.


my friends and I, thousands of cyclers, have been testing Randy's article for a long time and it does pan out in direct testing using cycling reefs that nitrite isn't toxic, as stated.


if someone wants to measure nitrate accurately I agree nitrite compliance better be in check


and so should the nitrate test being used, make sure its not the kind that reports 50 ppm difference to other kits on the same sample, in nitrate kit comparison threads.

 

[brandon429]

this thread is important because we get such a clear concise short version of not to worry about measuring nitrite. its not pages and pages of scrollable biochemistry reads, for new cyclers they just see post #40 and its helping us to do better, not worse, in cycling and in fish life retention.


by purposefully excluding nitrite worry in my cycles we get to focus on fish disease preps which comprise 99.9% of the patterned losses in tanks under one year old in reefing.

 

[Duncan62]

This is not correct in seawater. It is a misplaced concern carried over from freshwater systems.

I agree in small amounts. If this tank is cycling repeatedly it could be high enough to cause trouble.

 

[Duncan62]

The only reason I rely on this thread so much in cycle assessments is so that we have a clear starting point for loss assessments. Nitrite is not where we would start for loss assessments in marine systems, that's the basic takeaway from the sheer mountains of evidence available for nitrite and reefing.


this thread got a bump today because I used it for the 500th time to show a separate source, outside our cycle challenge thread, reaffirming we wouldn't start with nitrite in fish loss assessments especially when bottle bac was added first, ammonia was tracked to bone zero from a much higher starting point for ten days before only 2 fish were added into plenty of dilution. in that thread we discovered some standout acclimation issues and salinity shifting that's for sure.


my friends and I, thousands of cyclers, have been testing Randy's article for a long time and it does pan out in direct testing using cycling reefs that nitrite isn't toxic, as stated.


if someone wants to measure nitrate accurately I agree nitrite compliance better be in check


and so should the nitrate test being used, make sure its not the kind that reports 50 ppm difference to other kits on the same sample, in nitrate kit comparison threads.

Chloride in seawater delays toxic effects but it is bad. Nitrite. It's the only thing that should always be 0.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I agree in small amounts. If this tank is cycling repeatedly it could be high enough to cause trouble.

I do not think any reef tank ever attains toxic levels, even when cycling.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Chloride in seawater delays toxic effects but it is bad. Nitrite. It's the only thing that should always be 0.

What organism do you believe suffers at what level of nitrite in a reef tank? 100 ppm? 300 ppm? more? Is that ever attained?

Check out my article on it, which supplies actual tox data:


Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[Duncan62]

What organism do you believe suffers at what level of nitrite in a reef tank? 100 ppm? 300 ppm? more? Is that ever attained?

Check out my article on it, which supplies actual tox data:


Nitrite and the Reef Aquarium by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

In a closed bacteria based system id be concerned if it's even measurable. The fact that you can try to see how much nitrite the system can tolerate doesn't make it OK. Most of the ocean is below .3. I've taken samples from the gulf stream and inshore waters. You can condition a black Molly to live in Salt water, but should you?. Nitrite bad. The article is informative.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

In a closed bacteria based system id be concerned if it's even measurable. The fact that you can try to see how much nitrite the system can tolerate doesn't make it OK. Most of the ocean is below .3. I've taken samples from the gulf stream and inshore waters. You can condition a black Molly to live in Salt water, but should you?. Nitrite bad. The article is informative.

OK, we apparently have different approaches to science. I'm relying on tests to say something is toxic or not.

Whether the ocean has a comparable level doesn't, IMO, say anything about toxicity.

 

[Duncan62]

OK, we apparently have different approaches to science. I'm relying on tests to say something is toxic or not.

Whether the ocean has a comparable level doesn't, IMO, say anything about toxicity.

The best way to keep animals in captivity is to create as natural a setting as possible. This doesn't include 300ppm nitrite. If a reef tank can flourish at that level I would love to see it. I'm not questioning your science and I'm not saying nitrite kills everything . I'm saying there's a problem if you think 300ppm is OK in a reef system

 

[Duncan62]

The best way to keep animals in captivity is to create as natural a setting as possible. This doesn't include 300ppm nitrite. If a reef tank can flourish at that level I would love to see it. I'm not questioning your science and I'm not saying nitrite kills everything . I'm saying there's a problem if you think 300ppm is OK in a reef system

I've cycled countless tanks since 1974. Not my first rodeo.

 

[brandon429]

that's never been attained in reefing though, =random high number that hasn't occurred and can't occur off the 2ppm ammonia everyone starts at. or even 5.


Readers: you can see where the weight in assessment lies regarding nitrite in reefing

this thread is a reminder that not tracking nitrite is your best bet in reefing. there are impactful params (ammonia) to concern over, and fish disease.


the article isn't just informative, its the only reference we've ever seen or can link on the matter specific to reef tanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've cycled countless tanks since 1974. Not my first rodeo.

Great.

You've been overly cautious and succeeded. If you ignored nitrite, I expect (with evidence) that you would have been equally successful.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The best way to keep animals in captivity is to create as natural a setting as possible.

Is it?

That's an opinion, not a demonstrated fact, and I do not share that opinion for a variety of chemicals in seawater.

It is perhaps a useful starting point, but once there is evidence to the contrary, I prefer to go with the data.

 

[Duncan62]

Is it?

That's an opinion, not a demonstrated fact, and I do not share that opinion for a variety of chemicals in seawater.

It is perhaps a useful starting point, but once there is evidence to the contrary, I prefer to go with the data.

I think we actually agree. Once a tank runs in you should never need that test kit again. But. Lol. A well balanced system should never approach toxic levels. But ....... I've demonstrated my approach to reefing for almost 50 years. Never a mass die off. Most animals are traded in after outgrowing my tanks. My stuff lives and flourishes. Proof enough for me. It's bee a fun discussion. Thanks.

 

[Duncan62]

I think we actually agree. Once a tank runs in you should never need that test kit again. But. Lol. A well balanced system should never approach toxic levels. But ....... I've demonstrated my approach to reefing for almost 50 years. Never a mass die off. Most animals are traded in after outgrowing my tanks. My stuff lives and flourishes. Proof enough for me. It's bee a fun discussion. Thanks.

One more thing. You can stimulate mutation and increase growth thru unnatural conditions. We all know this if we've seen corals in they're natural environment. Once again i agree.

 

[Soren]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Is this likely the same case for a bare-bottom quarantine tank? I am trying to understand this for my current quarantine after a recent issue. Sorry for this long write-up, but any advice is helpful to my lack of experience.

For back-story, I set up a 40-gallon breeder for a quarantine tank in a hurry to remove an undulate triggerfish from my 75-gallon FOWLR after it killed 2 other triggers. I acquired this FOWLR from a co-worker last September with all 3 triggers already in it. I knew having 3 triggers (especially in a 75) would be an issue, but I did not resolve it soon enough since the fish were all small (~3-3.5") and they seemed to get along. Anyway, I noticed the Picasso trigger started hiding all the time (previously was the boldest trigger) and guessed right away that it was due to aggression. Within 2-3 days, it was dead before I had my quarantine up and running. Then the second trigger (rectangle) started hiding and was killed within a day before I could catch the undulate trigger to relocate to the new quarantine tank. I used a piece of live rock from my FOWLR to start the quarantine tank and added some biomedia and a large sponge filter. After a few days and the relocation of the trigger to a co-worker's tank, I added an order of 4 fish to my quarantine tank assuming it was cycled. The 4 fish were a Fiji bicolor foxface (~3.5"), 2 juvenile engineer gobies (~2"), and a raccoon butterflyfish (~2.5").

The raccoon butterflyfish had an excessive breath rate (~160 per minute) with no other signs of disease. I prepared possible disease-prevention methods in case they were necessary (concerned about Velvet Amyloodinium possibly attacking the gills) and continued to just observe over the next few days. Ultimately, the raccoon died while the other fish are thriving. I noticed at some point in the process that a quick test with API 5-in-1 strips showed maximum nitrites. This lead me to fear ammonia poisoning due to an incomplete "cycle" with not enough bacteria nitrification from the piece of live rock, but Salifert ammonia tests showed zero. I am still unsure of the cause of death. Would all fishes in a tank typically be affected by ammonia poisoning? It may have been a pre-existing condition before I received the fish. Due to being relatively new to the marine hobby, any information is helpful.

This brings me to my current question: The fish in the quarantine are doing great, I added a dose of Fritz zyme 9 that I had available to help ensure cycle, ammonia still reads zero, and nitrite is still maxed out on API 5-in-1 test strips (compared to a zero test on newly-made saltwater).
Is this nitrite a continued concern in my quarantine? I assume from this article that it is likely not an issue and my main concern should be about ammonia? Is there anything I should do to limit nitrites? Are water changes harmful while ensuring a cycle and trying to establish bacteria on additional biomedia?

 

[Duncan62]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Is this likely the same case for a bare-bottom quarantine tank? I am trying to understand this for my current quarantine after a recent issue. Sorry for this long write-up, but any advice is helpful to my lack of experience.

For back-story, I set up a 40-gallon breeder for a quarantine tank in a hurry to remove an undulate triggerfish from my 75-gallon FOWLR after it killed 2 other triggers. I acquired this FOWLR from a co-worker last September with all 3 triggers already in it. I knew having 3 triggers (especially in a 75) would be an issue, but I did not resolve it soon enough since the fish were all small (~3-3.5") and they seemed to get along. Anyway, I noticed the Picasso trigger started hiding all the time (previously was the boldest trigger) and guessed right away that it was due to aggression. Within 2-3 days, it was dead before I had my quarantine up and running. Then the second trigger (rectangle) started hiding and was killed within a day before I could catch the undulate trigger to relocate to the new quarantine tank. I used a piece of live rock from my FOWLR to start the quarantine tank and added some biomedia and a large sponge filter. After a few days and the relocation of the trigger to a co-worker's tank, I added an order of 4 fish to my quarantine tank assuming it was cycled. The 4 fish were a Fiji bicolor foxface (~3.5"), 2 juvenile engineer gobies (~2"), and a raccoon butterflyfish (~2.5").

The raccoon butterflyfish had an excessive breath rate (~160 per minute) with no other signs of disease. I prepared possible disease-prevention methods in case they were necessary and continued to just observe over the next few days. Ultimately, the raccoon died while the other fish are thriving. I noticed at some point in the process that a quick test with API 5-in-1 strips showed maximum nitrites. This lead me to fear ammonia poisoning due to an incomplete "cycle" with not enough bacteria nitrification from the piece of live rock, but Salifert ammonia tests showed zero. I am still unsure of the cause of death. Would all fishes in a tank typically be affected by ammonia poisoning? It may have been a pre-existing condition before I received the fish. Due to being relatively new to the marine hobby, any information is helpful.

This brings me to my current question: The fish in the quarantine are doing great, I added a dose of Fritz zyme 9 that I had available to help ensure cycle, ammonia still reads zero, and nitrite is still maxed out on API 5-in-1 test strips (compared to a zero test on newly-made saltwater).
Is this nitrite a continued concern in my quarantine? I assume from this article that it is likely not an issue and my main concern should be about ammonia? Is there anything I should do to limit nitrites? Are water changes harmful while ensuring a cycle and trying to establish bacteria on additional biomedia?

High nitrite causes stress. Stress kills.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

High nitrite causes stress. Stress kills.

Another assertion without any evidence. Do you have any evidence that the levels that might be attained in a reef tank (say, 1-2 ppm) are stressful to anything we keep?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Is it?

That's an opinion, not a demonstrated fact, and I do not share that opinion for a variety of chemicals in seawater.

It is perhaps a useful starting point, but once there is evidence to the contrary, I prefer to go with the data.

For me, that includes excluding natural predators….
Jay

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
Is this likely the same case for a bare-bottom quarantine tank? I am trying to understand this for my current quarantine after a recent issue. Sorry for this long write-up, but any advice is helpful to my lack of experience.

For back-story, I set up a 40-gallon breeder for a quarantine tank in a hurry to remove an undulate triggerfish from my 75-gallon FOWLR after it killed 2 other triggers. I acquired this FOWLR from a co-worker last September with all 3 triggers already in it. I knew having 3 triggers (especially in a 75) would be an issue, but I did not resolve it soon enough since the fish were all small (~3-3.5") and they seemed to get along. Anyway, I noticed the Picasso trigger started hiding all the time (previously was the boldest trigger) and guessed right away that it was due to aggression. Within 2-3 days, it was dead before I had my quarantine up and running. Then the second trigger (rectangle) started hiding and was killed within a day before I could catch the undulate trigger to relocate to the new quarantine tank. I used a piece of live rock from my FOWLR to start the quarantine tank and added some biomedia and a large sponge filter. After a few days and the relocation of the trigger to a co-worker's tank, I added an order of 4 fish to my quarantine tank assuming it was cycled. The 4 fish were a Fiji bicolor foxface (~3.5"), 2 juvenile engineer gobies (~2"), and a raccoon butterflyfish (~2.5").

The raccoon butterflyfish had an excessive breath rate (~160 per minute) with no other signs of disease. I prepared possible disease-prevention methods in case they were necessary (concerned about Velvet Amyloodinium possibly attacking the gills) and continued to just observe over the next few days. Ultimately, the raccoon died while the other fish are thriving. I noticed at some point in the process that a quick test with API 5-in-1 strips showed maximum nitrites. This lead me to fear ammonia poisoning due to an incomplete "cycle" with not enough bacteria nitrification from the piece of live rock, but Salifert ammonia tests showed zero. I am still unsure of the cause of death. Would all fishes in a tank typically be affected by ammonia poisoning? It may have been a pre-existing condition before I received the fish. Due to being relatively new to the marine hobby, any information is helpful.

This brings me to my current question: The fish in the quarantine are doing great, I added a dose of Fritz zyme 9 that I had available to help ensure cycle, ammonia still reads zero, and nitrite is still maxed out on API 5-in-1 test strips (compared to a zero test on newly-made saltwater).
Is this nitrite a continued concern in my quarantine? I assume from this article that it is likely not an issue and my main concern should be about ammonia? Is there anything I should do to limit nitrites? Are water changes harmful while ensuring a cycle and trying to establish bacteria on additional biomedia?

I think it most likely the issue is something else, such as ammonia or shipping stress.

If you are concerned about either ammonia or nitrite, water changes are a good plan. So is adding some macroalgae.