Optimal phosphate level? (Mixed Reef)

[Scrubber_steve]

If you want to disprove their research then set up an experiment we can measure and repeat consistently as they have.

glennf is one that has already done your experiment, repeating it consistently, & far more in depth time wise than the research you've provided. So, if you are suggesting that a PN ratio of 50:1 (e.g NO3 @ 2ppm & PO4 @ 0.04ppm) is detrimental in a reef aquarium, then glenn's experiment has disproven your theory.

cheers

 

[ReefGeezer]

Technically speaking, algae doesn’t require these two nutrients at all to exist. Most is autotrophic and can produce their own sugars via photosynthesis. What I’m referring to is the algae blooms we see when algae is supplied available nutrients. For algae to grow, it really needs both in tandem to create a wild bloom like we see here on the forums.

Technically a phototroph.

 

[living_tribunal]

glennf is one that has already done your experiment, repeating it consistently, & far more in depth time wise than the research you've provided. So, if you are suggesting that a PN ratio of 50:1 (e.g NO3 @ 2ppm & PO4 @ 0.04ppm) is detrimental in a reef aquarium, then glenn's experiment has disproven your theory.

cheers

Interesting, never seen his research as it pertains to the subject. I’m sure most in the field wouldn’t be so quick to discredit Lapointe’s research. Not sure why you are so aggressive and against the science either.

I never suggested such a thing regarding that absolute level. In one of the pieces I referenced, corals in phosphate levels of .34ppm (3.6μM) and nitrates of .003ppm (.06μM) had the same functioning symbiosis, polyp extension, calcification, and similar zooxanthelle density as the High N/High P nutrient replete subjects.

Since we know coral health skews heavily towards one parameter over another, why risk it? It’s clear how to keep things maximized.

I can’t debate someone who discredits decades of research and points to a single friend as proof that those knee deep researching the topic are wrong. Best we end it here.

Op, you’ve heard multiple sides, you can run your reef however you please. I’m sure you’ll find success.

 

[living_tribunal]

All of these studies you mention...
These are on open water coral reefs throughout the world.
Can a closed system that we run be a total differant set of target numbers?

Actually a few, namely on the growth rates of coral, were tested and measured in aquariums. So they can definitely be replicated in our tanks.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I never suggested such a thing regarding that absolute level.

regarding N to P ratio, you suggested - "Anything under 10-14x will be great. Over 20x is when you see less growth."
So, there are numerous people successfully keeping sps, magnificent growth, & with PN ratios well over 20x.

What experience do you have in the hobby to argue against this? When have you witnessed a tank with 20x PN ration causing "less growth"?

 

[jda]

I would suggest to anybody to get a tank, run it for a handful of years and pay attention. You will get far more out of this than some studies not directed at what we are doing (and the small details are the only things that matter) or looking at the tanks of a guy who is so good as a hobbyist that he would have success if he was using ZeoVit, Berlin, Modified Berlin, or anything else.

Anybody who has done this will surely know that there are plenty of corals that do not give a dang about nitrate and phosphates at very high levels that would kill other corals. The successes at different building block levels are not achieved with the same exact specimens. Which does not even cross the minds of post readers and study studiers, but certainly does when you watch your once-prized coral suffer as the ratios/absolutes go up and that one cannot handle it anymore whereas others do not care. 2.0 and .04 is not a big number and I doubt that anything would much care, but at 20 and .4 (still that same ratio), chateo will slow down, coralline, most of my smooth skinned (not all) acropora would STN and lose color whereas most stags, softies and LPS would not care at all.

Lastly, most of the corals used in studies are weeds that nearly nobody wants and that will grow in nearly any conditions. Disappointing to those with experience.

 

[living_tribunal]

I would suggest to anybody to get a tank, run it for a handful of years and pay attention. You will get far more out of this than some studies not directed at what we are doing (and the small details are the only things that matter) or looking at the tanks of a guy who is so good as a hobbyist that he would have success if he was using ZeoVit, Berlin, Modified Berlin, or anything else.

Anybody who has done this will surely know that there are plenty of corals that do not give a dang about nitrate and phosphates at very high levels that would kill other corals. The successes at different building block levels are not achieved with the same exact specimens. Which does not even cross the minds of post readers and study studiers, but certainly does when you watch your once-prized coral suffer as the ratios/absolutes go up and that one cannot handle it anymore whereas others do not care. 2.0 and .04 is not a big number and I doubt that anything would much care, but at 20 and .4 (still that same ratio), chateo will slow down, coralline, most of my smooth skinned (not all) acropora would STN and lose color whereas most stags, softies and LPS would not care at all.

Lastly, most of the corals used in studies are weeds that nearly nobody wants and that will grow in nearly any conditions. Disappointing to those with experience.

While I agree with most of what you're saying I don't consider hammer nor acropora 'weeds'. There are many ways to skin a cat with reefing, just tossing my suggestion based on the evidence out there. Anyone is free to accept it, learn from it, or reject it entirely

I run nitrates at .5-1 and phosphates at .1, it's what works for me. I'm sure there are a wide range of parameters people have success with given how much of a helping hand we have in our reefs.

 

[jda]

Hammers and acros used in every study that I have seen (except for some millepora) are weed type that can thrive with middling level competency.

I don't even care what everybody wants to do or what levels they want to run. It matters not to me, but most of what is on this thread has not helped anybody with anything.

Your own experiences with photos, documentation (posts are fine) and a year or two of stability will go farther than linking to any article or study. People tend to argue with, or toss out, links to this or that study, manufacturer's recommendations or a way of reefing that has only been employed by the poster for a short time.

Like this... a decade of MH, .1n, .005-.01p, CaRx and this growth progression over about a year. No studies. Sorry for the bad photos:

 

[living_tribunal]

Hammers and acros used in every study that I have seen (except for some millepora) are weed type that can thrive with middling level competency.

I don't even care what everybody wants to do or what levels they want to run. It matters not to me, but most of what is on this thread has not helped anybody with anything.

Your own experiences with photos, documentation (posts are fine) and a year or two of stability will go farther than linking to any article or study. People tend to argue with, or toss out, links to this or that study, manufacturer's recommendations or a way of reefing that has only been employed by the poster for a short time.

Like this... a decade of MH, .1n, .005-.01p, CaRx and this growth progression over about a year. No studies. Sorry for the bad photos:

I disagree, to ignore comprehensive research that was conducted in an aquarium environment is foolish. We are able to deduce all of the exact parameters, specific par/spectrum, ph, salinity, and measure the specific cell densities of the zooxanthelle at various parameter levels. We can’t do that from someone’s photo.

Sure, hammers will grow fine under many conditions but op didn’t ask for that. He asked for optimal conditions as in what would lead to the fastest growth. I took the time to answer that specific question with the evidence I’ve found that supports my case.

If you disagree, that’s always fine, it’s how we make our tank processes more efficient in the long run. But tell me exactly why you disagree and the evidence to support how different parameters lead to faster growth rates as it pertains to ops specific question.

We’ve gotten way off topic here.

 

[Potatohead]

So... Here's a question.

There are a lot of reef tanks out there with higher N than P... A lot. For example my tank is generally 4-5 nitrate and .02-.03 P. I would like the P a little higher but haven't been able to get there. So, how do we flip it around if the tank is processing N&P in such a manner? Is it as simple as dosing P which should in turn also lower nitrate?

 

[RevMH]

Hammers and acros used in every study that I have seen (except for some millepora) are weed type that can thrive with middling level competency.

I don't even care what everybody wants to do or what levels they want to run. It matters not to me, but most of what is on this thread has not helped anybody with anything.

Your own experiences with photos, documentation (posts are fine) and a year or two of stability will go farther than linking to any article or study. People tend to argue with, or toss out, links to this or that study, manufacturer's recommendations or a way of reefing that has only been employed by the poster for a short time.

Like this... a decade of MH, .1n, .005-.01p, CaRx and this growth progression over about a year. No studies. Sorry for the bad photos:

Nice looking piece!

 

[jda]

This is all pretty typical type of post from someone without experience. Get some... you will be able to help more. Evidence that you have found is not worth as much as actual experience. If you are smart, you will see how what some of them concluded was not your experience at all.

I just showed you why I do what I do. I am not sure that I agreed or disagreed with anything other than to say that people repeating studies does not help. I just showed what I can do and how I did it. Can you do that? Have you done that?

 

[Laith]

What should a good phosphate level be for a mixed reef be (SPS,LPS,&softies)? My phosphate levels were around a 0.15ppm and I was told that was to low so I brought it up to a 0.30ppm but I think that’s to high. What should it be around?

How are your corals doing at those levels?

The number doesn't matter (to a certain extent); look at your corals and see if the coloration/growth/health is what you want/expect...

 

[Hyde2406]

Thanks for the feed back. Good to know someone else with the same phosphate level as me isn’t having problems.

Mine was up to 1.0 and I had no issues but I've brought it back down to .3.... every once in awhile I'll do phosphate drops and kick it back down, over a few days, never had any real issue from it though. My nitrates never go above 15 no idea what's right or wrong just what works for my tank. Good luck and don't stress this is supposed to be fun

 

[Nick Rose]

How would one lower just nitrates while keeping higher phosphate? I have too tanks. With one of them I’m dosing Phosphate Rx to lower the P since everything you read is to have P at .1 or lower. Before Rx it was 10 N and .58 P. Right now its 5 N and .1 P. The tank has a green bubble algae problem at the moment.

 

[living_tribunal]

How would one lower just nitrates while keeping higher phosphate? I have too tanks. With one of them I’m dosing Phosphate Rx to lower the P since everything you read is to have P at .1 or lower. Before Rx it was 10 N and .58 P. Right now its 5 N and .1 P. The tank has a green bubble algae problem at the moment.

It’s a bit tricky as most export methods are heavily skewed towards phosphate removal.

The most effective methods for nitrate are carbon, resin, or running a denitrifying bacteria culture in a media reactor or other low ph location.

I use vinegar dosing with purigen and dose small amounts of phosphate daily.

 

[living_tribunal]

This is all pretty typical type of post from someone without experience. Get some... you will be able to help more. Evidence that you have found is not worth as much as actual experience. If you are smart, you will see how what some of them concluded was not your experience at all.

I just showed you why I do what I do. I am not sure that I agreed or disagreed with anything other than to say that people repeating studies does not help. I just showed what I can do and how I did it. Can you do that? Have you done that?

Not sure why you feel the need to insult me personally or are being aggressive.

I simply presented a comprehensive study conducted within an aquarium that showed the cell densities, zooxanthelle efficiency, calcification, and polyp extension of a hammer coral under various phosphate levels.

This can be repeated, is replicable, and measurable. How you consider it not worth mentioning to ops question is beyond me. Science is our friend...

Let’s stay on topic here and not insult others, we’re discussing reefing after all.

 

[Tastee]

It’s a bit tricky as most export methods are heavily skewed towards phosphate removal.

The most effective methods for nitrate are carbon, resin, or running a denitrifying bacteria culture in a media reactor or other low ph location.

I use vinegar dosing with purigen and dose small amounts of phosphate daily.

I’m finding this thread very interesting too, as my 65g mixed reef is now just over 2 years old and I’m gradually learning about it’s behaviour and ecosystem. I’m obviously a lot less experienced than yourself and many of the other contributors but I have also just started using carbon dosing (NoPoX) again to reduce my nitrate. I used it successfully to reduce nutrients in the first year when initially getting the tank stable.

I started to get my tank stable after getting rid of GHA 12 months ago at which time I stopped carbon dosing. By then I had very low nitrate and phosphates and they have gradually risen to now be 6 ppm nitrates and 0.12 ppm phosphates. My tank is consuming a lot of what goes in, but obviously not everything. I’m hoping low levels of carbon dosing (0.5 ml/day) will lower the nitrates but not so much the phosphates. Time will tell. The reason I have started it again is because I feel film algae etc is getting a little more common - growing on the glass more quickly than it used to.

From everything else I have read about this in the last couple of years I feel that the N/P ratio is indeed important, so it’s interesting to follow this thread. Obviously different reefers have great results with lots of different ratios and nutrient levels, so I guess from a hobbyist perspective it’s about finding out what works for you.

 

[Jmart]

I have a headache reading this thread... So I should be dosing bleach 50x the normal amount to stop algae

 

[Stigigemla]

The one thing that disturbs me most here (and in some other threads) is that some people seems to think that Acropora is one solid family of corals. Some Acroporas can live in heavy raining over the water surface at low tide.
Some deep water Acroporas is extremely sensitive to changes of alcalinity in reef tanks and they definatly will not survive over the water surface. And they live in low, mostly blue light.

Going back to our reef tanks we now have a lot of experience by ourselves and other reefers.
Summing up that is hard to do. We dont even read the same threads on this forum so everyone will have different information that we then more or less filter to fit our opinions.

But I have done that (and I think most experienced reefers have done that too) and I have come to a few conclusions.
My results are:

Low nitrate levels below 1mg/l can pale off some Euphyllias. Still lower can pale other corals but some Acroporas can look good with zero nitrate. (They can take up ammonia and urea from the fishes before the nitrogen cycle kicls in).
Some Acroporas grow slower at 10 mg/l and stop growing at 30 mg/l. Many other corals stop growing at about 60 mg/l.

Low phosphate level( under 0,1) will make some corals grow slower. Again Acropora is a big family so there are some Acroporas that will do very well in lower values. Some corals cant take up phosphate in lower values than 0,02.
0,3 in phosphate can directly kill some corals while other can grow good in 2 mg/l.

We have other life than corals in our tanks. A common problem most of us have or have had is Cyano bacteria.
There are many species of cyano that have different needs so a common way to get rid of cyano will never come.
But we know a common way of getting a usual kind of cyano. That is to have a low factor of N/P.
Those species generally disappear if You have 50x more nitrate than phosphate. I think that is the common reason why so many recommend so much more nitrate than phosphate. No coral will do good if it is overgrown of cyano and that will probably be the case if anyone follows the values stated in the beginning of this thread.

A long post. Normally I try to keep it in max 3 rows but this time it was impossible.