Phosphates Out of Control - I need to Use GFO or some other Liquid PO remover

[Ashish Patel]

Oh, and my tank is 260 gallons. I think GFO is awesome. Plus, no risk to the tangs, which is even more savings if you account for the folks who lost their fish.

I'll have to do research on that, My PO are so out of control that I could see myself being a dumb beginner in this and getting carried away.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I don't think phosphates at 0.2 ppm are a major problem. Have you tried any corals, I don't believe that number would be prohibitive.

I've used TM Elimi-phos which is a lanthanum based product in the past, but have moved to primarily GFO in a reactor. I change once every two weeks. What other methods of nutrient export are you using?

I have a few corals but they didnt do well bc of other reasons, right now I have milka stylo that is clearly encrusting and growing and 2 zoas and acan (doing fine). 1 acro (bleeding tree), not doing well but not dieing, he is a hardy **** and I am just ready to pull him but i have a few backups.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I second phosphate e, it's what I use but tangs can be sensitive to it from time to time. Best to be dosed in a fine micron filter sock or directly into the skimmer.

You would need a crap ton of gfo, phosphate e is going to many times cheaper and more effective just take it slow and nock it down over several doses. What are your nitrates?

I ran out of my salifert Nitrates this week so don't know but it was always around 5-15 PPM. I will order a new tester and curious if its in range. I am sure its up too,

 

[Ashish Patel]

Can you get an independent evaluation of your phosphate? Perhaps LFS? What are your other water parameters? Nitrates esp? There is an expected ratio between those two values.

You wrote below which is not very telling ... what if that number were 1000 and you did 25% water change:
Hanna ULR showed 200 (last week), I made a 25% waterchange and reduced feeding, and yesterday I am still getting a blinking 200 on the ULR checker

I've used this to knock it back:

Phosphate Rx | Melev's Reef

melevsreef.com

It's important to have everything in balance. Also, TAKE YOUR TIME. It didn't get out of whack overnight and it should not drop to reasonable overnight either.

Take a deep breath and you'll work it out

For me, biodigest & bioptim every two weeks with microbacter 7 in alternating week into both tank and the bio ball aquamax XL reactor with pump, combined with daily vodka dosing and planted refugium on 24 hour light cycle help with both my nitrates and phosphates.

Thanks, yeah I agree on having everything balanced, thats why i never added any bio blocks that just strip the nitrates and Phosphates are on the high side, I am ok with high nutrients, I prefer them to be honest bc the tank stays healthy when there is algae to graze for all the tank inhabitants. I have waited awhile for PO to drop and thought they would, but i am at the point where Im thinking maybe I need a $3K abyss pump to combat my 12 foot of head pressure, (getting only 1.5X turnover now) which would surely reduce PO, I have very little room for error in my filtration, my skimmer can't take a day off in performance, my pumps cant get dirty, my fish have grown in mass about 3X in 7 months. I know it will get there naturally but I just need help to find a boost that will get me there in 1 month and not 6 months. Luckily I have been down these challenging time and Know It takes awhile for things to get better, nothing happens good fast in a reef tank, everything takes dang Long!

 

[sdreef]

I have a few corals but they didnt do well bc of other reasons, right now I have milka stylo that is clearly encrusting and growing and 2 zoas and acan (doing fine). 1 acro (bleeding tree), not doing well but not dieing, he is a hardy **** and I am just ready to pull him but i have a few backups.

What phosphate level do you want to target? Some fish can be sensitive to lanthanum products as @Miami Reef alluded. I've used it without problems with fish, but you have to dose it slowly.

Unless you have a really large refugium, not sure how effective it truly is at controlling phosphates. A GFO reactor will be a reasonable next step. This will be effective in reducing phosphates, take up little real estate, and will maintain phosphate levels.

 

[Ashish Patel]

If the lanthanum chloride precipitates it sticks to tangs gills and strangles them essentially. Witch is why it's important to use reef safe stuff and a fine micron filter sock or small doses directly into the skimmer. It's safe as long as you use it properly. It's the go to for large aquariums imo because of its cost effectiveness.

2liters Phosphate E will remove 1ppm phosphate in 8000 Gallons of water. 60-85$

You could easily go threw a several Gallons of gfo likely more in the time it takes go threw that much phosphate E. It would cost several hundred dollars and you need a reactor and a pump.

Also never get any contaminants into any liquid phosphate remover, such as aquarium water.

I'm not pushing for one or another just sharing my 2 cents. Good luck, with high po4 it's hard to grow just about any coral with a skeletal structure in me experience. Same with low ph.

Maybe better of getting a icecap algae scrubber. No wonder why these things are rip off, its a one time investment and your good!

 

[Miami Reef]

What phosphate level do you want to target? Some fish can be sensitive to lanthanum products as @Miami Reef alluded. I've used it without problems with fish, but you have to dose it slowly.

Unless you have a really large refugium, not sure how effective it truly is at controlling phosphates. A GFO reactor will be a reasonable next step. This will be effective in reducing phosphates, take up little real estate, and will maintain phosphate levels.

I agree with @sdreef

I used Brightwell E (lanthanum) in the past with no ill effect, but I was very cautious and slowly dosed into a 1-micron sock.


Despite doing that, I still registered free lanthanum in my ICP test, so I stopped all lanthanum before I added any of my corals/clams to the tank. Apparently, clams don’t do well with lanthanum. I’ve read that in an article, and I never wanted to risk it to find out, so I’ll never know if it was a fact. And the free lanthanum did go away when I stopped using that product.

 

[Ashish Patel]

What phosphate level do you want to target? Some fish can be sensitive to lanthanum products as @Miami Reef alluded. I've used it without problems with fish, but you have to dose it slowly.

Unless you have a really large refugium, not sure how effective it truly is at controlling phosphates. A GFO reactor will be a reasonable next step. This will be effective in reducing phosphates, take up little real estate, and will maintain phosphate levels.

How slow would you dose it to 550 gallon ?

I have a pretty big chamber in my sump that I can make a good refugium (3'x4'). I just wasn't sure what type of algae but probably gonna order cheato from algae barn and maybe dragons breath (to feed the tangs). This is my 240gallon dreambox, I just hesitant to adding a refugium bc its so easy to keep clean right now.

 

[Ashish Patel]

I agree with @sdreef

I used Brightwell E (lanthanum) in the past with no ill effect, but I was very cautious and slowly dosed into a 1-micron sock.


Despite doing that, I still registered free lanthanum in my ICP test, so I stopped all lanthanum before I added any of my corals/clams to the tank. Apparently, clams don’t do well with lanthanum. I’ve read that in an article, and I never wanted to risk it to find out, so I’ll never know if it was a fact. And the free lanthanum did go away when I stopped using that product.

This is valuable information. Thanks for sharing! I think my PO maybe too high to dose Lanthaum Chloride, based on what I am reading it maybe better as a small adjustment type thing.

 

[sdreef]

Maybe better of getting a icecap algae scrubber. No wonder why these things are rip off, its a one time investment and your good!

LOL, I wish you were right on this. I don't have any experience with a ATS, but know of a couple systems crashing due to issues related to an abrupt change in function of the ATS... so I wouldn't say one investment and your good to go.

That's a decent area for a refugium. I think you should give that a shot. Can't see a downside.

Regarding the lanthanum, follow the instructions on the product depending on which you select. They all come with a disclaimer.

 

[piranhaman00]

I drip lanthanum that is heavily diluted via oscillate function on apex 24/7 into a 10um sock, keeps PO4 around 20ppb

 

[Miami Reef]

This is valuable information. Thanks for sharing! I think my PO maybe too high to dose Lanthaum Chloride, based on what I am reading it maybe better as a small adjustment type thing.

Lanthanum is meant for higher phosphates. This is how the large aquariums use Lanthanum and GFO:

 

[mehaffydr]

I don't think phosphates at 0.2 ppm are a major problem. Have you tried any corals, I don't believe that number would be prohibitive.

I've used TM Elimi-phos which is a lanthanum based product in the past, but have moved to primarily GFO in a reactor. I change once every two weeks. What other methods of nutrient export are you using?

Its not 0.2ppm its actually 0.61 PPM and the Hanna is maxed out at 200 so its somewhere above the .61ppm.
The Hanna ULR is Phosphorus not Phosphate so there is a conversion that has to be done.

I have an 1100 gallon tank 1350 gallon system and had the same issue. I had used some old rock that apparently was full of PO4. It took me a couple of months and more than a Gallon of Phosphate-E but I now have phosphate .001 - .002 ppm.

I would recommend the Phosphate E just go slow. i dripped mine directly in the skimmer and also used filter socks to catch any that got out of the skimmer.

It is onlt dangerous if you are impatient and overdose.

 

[sdreef]

Its not 0.2ppm its actually 0.61 PPM and the Hanna is maxed out at 200 so its somewhere above the .61ppm.
The Hanna ULR is Phosphorus not Phosphate so there is a conversion that has to be done.

I have an 1100 gallon tank 1350 gallon system and had the same issue. I had used some old rock that apparently was full of PO4. It took me a couple of months and more than a Gallon of Phosphate-E but I now have phosphate .001 - .002 ppm.

I would recommend the Phosphate E just go slow. i dripped mine directly in the skimmer and also used filter socks to catch any that got out of the skimmer.

It is onlt dangerous if you are impatient and overdose.

Thanks for clarifying, I missed the checker was for phosphorus and not phosphates.

Perhaps a higher range phosphate checker to accurately measure and follow any treatment would be a good in addition to any export method selected.

 

[Ashish Patel]

Its not 0.2ppm its actually 0.61 PPM and the Hanna is maxed out at 200 so its somewhere above the .61ppm.
The Hanna ULR is Phosphorus not Phosphate so there is a conversion that has to be done.

I have an 1100 gallon tank 1350 gallon system and had the same issue. I had used some old rock that apparently was full of PO4. It took me a couple of months and more than a Gallon of Phosphate-E but I now have phosphate .001 - .002 ppm.

I would recommend the Phosphate E just go slow. i dripped mine directly in the skimmer and also used filter socks to catch any that got out of the skimmer.

It is onlt dangerous if you are impatient and overdose.

Yeap, sounds just about right where I am right now! Very old LR that was filled with dead organics, I had so much show pieces rock that I bleached and acid bathed, but ended up not using most of them and went with the about 70% of rock I was not planning on using. So alot of dirty rock was used last minute.

Good to know that Phosphate E helped you but curious, You said dripped in the skimmer, do you mean hand dose or drip with a dosing pump? How much did you dose per day and at what intervals? Now that your PO are so low are you still using Phosphate E to maintain that level?

 

[Ashish Patel]

What phosphate level do you want to target? Some fish can be sensitive to lanthanum products as @Miami Reef alluded. I've used it without problems with fish, but you have to dose it slowly.

Unless you have a really large refugium, not sure how effective it truly is at controlling phosphates. A GFO reactor will be a reasonable next step. This will be effective in reducing phosphates, take up little real estate, and will maintain phosphate levels.

I am targeting PO of 0.05 to 0.20PPM. I feel the refugium will definitely help once PO are at a reasonable level. I checked my recorded and the day before I added first fish my phosphates where 196PPB on the checker. This is before adding anything to the tank so I know its just a buildup of dead organics coming from rock.

 

[Ashish Patel]

So after reading everyones response and doing some research. I have decided the best thing for a larger volume of water and high PO is Lanthaium cloride. Can anyone shares the dos and dont? Like do i have to dose in a 10 micron sock or will a 100 micro suffice? Can i dose by hand into the sock or skimmer or do I need a dosing pump? I have a versa pump used for Kalk so can always use it for dosing Lanthium to the skimmer on a slow drip.

 

[sdreef]

So after reading everyones response and doing some research. I have decided the best thing for a larger volume of water and high PO is Lanthaium cloride. Can anyone shares the dos and dont? Like do i have to dose in a 10 micron sock or will a 100 micro suffice? Can i dose by hand into the sock or skimmer or do I need a dosing pump? I have a versa pump used for Kalk so can always use it for dosing Lanthium to the skimmer on a slow drip.

Here is segment on lanthanum by @Thales and Ben. I recommend watching it. Also consider getting a checker for phosphate as opposed to phosphorus and one more in line with your current range of phosphates.

 

[Miami Reef]

So after reading everyones response and doing some research. I have decided the best thing for a larger volume of water and high PO is Lanthaium cloride. Can anyone shares the dos and dont? Like do i have to dose in a 10 micron sock or will a 100 micro suffice? Can i dose by hand into the sock or skimmer or do I need a dosing pump? I have a versa pump used for Kalk so can always use it for dosing Lanthium to the skimmer on a slow drip.

You need a 1-5 micron sock. Do not dose directly into skimmer.

The PPB checker will work fine; no need for the ppm.

 

[jim_fitz]

i dose lathanum chloride into the air in take of my skimmer
only been doing this a few weeks but initial results are promising
just need to fine tune the amount i dose