Quarantining fish preferred online without copper

[lolmatt]

Tank Transfer Method (all versions)

The table and video below are meant to show/explain the differences between the 3 different versions of Tank Transfer Method. If you are completely unfamiliar with TTM, please read more detailed information found in the links below: Standard TTM Velvet TTM Hybrid TTM How to perform a H2O2...

humble.fish

Well, thanks for that. I've read that before but not since the updates. That might be how I go from now on. Question on the 36 and 71 hour marks. How critical are these? Say if I'm an hour or couple hours off, since I have to work and all. Do I not worry about small amounts of water being transferred with net/fish?

I actually just found it about it myself. If that's interesting to you, you should read about ttm with peroxide that is potentially even easier.

The 36 hour is a convenience thing, velvet tomont "hatch" after "about" 48 hours. Ich is quite predictable at 72 hours. So at 36, you hit an easy time (ie 7am/7pm), and you don't risk going over the "about" 48 hour time. Check out my link to page 12 of that thread to see some of humblefish's original thoughts on ttm for velvet.

A little water transferred is not a concern. It shouldn't contain any free swimmers nor tomonts. FWIW I prefer to use a white or clear basket over a net.

 

[Aardvark1134]

jeeperz you can believe all you want that nothing else works on ich velvet but I already gave you 2 others that work extreemly well on ich. Honestly ich is one of the easier diseases to deal with.

 

[Jeeperz]

jeeperz you can believe all you want that nothing else works on ich velvet but I already gave you 2 others that work extreemly well on ich. Honestly ich is one of the easier diseases to deal with.

I guess you missed where lolmatt linked the article AND informed me of the updates to the thread that included humblefish observations and success using the ttm on velvet. I don't worry about ich only. If I'm worrying about ich, I'm sure worrying about velvet which is much more deadly to fish. I don't know why someone would worry about ich and not velvet, makes little sense.

 

[Ross Petersen]

Not at all true. TTM in my opinion is the easiest and least stressful way to treat ich. If you're confident nothing else is there, it's the only way I would treat ich. Done in 4 transfers using brute totes and some pvc, hardly what you'd call a tank.

Not at all true? Having multiple tanks/bins for many reefers is surely a bit laborsome - but ethically and environmentally, way better than meds on meds.

 

[lolmatt]

Not at all true? Having multiple tanks/bins for many reefers is surely a bit laborsome - but ethically and environmentally, way better than meds on meds.

I was more referring to him saying what "everyone was thinking." Having treated various fish using TTM, copper, CP, and hypo, I believe ttm to be the simplest (haven't tried the velvet method yet, that could be quite a bit more stressful). I did the whole thing on my laundry room counter which is no more than 2x3 ft. Cleanup of the brute totes I use was as simple as spraying down with dilute bleach followed by a hose on the porch.

It's easier than copper or cp because there are no levels or leaching to worry about, no ramp up dosing, no questioning if you're at 1.8 or 2.0 ppm to kill the ever-growing resistant strains of ich and velvet. And you can treat for gill flukes at the same time on days 6 and 12.

CP is my next best. I admit I've only used ttm for ich, so I did CP recently for a fish that likely had velvet based on the lfs that sold him to me.

I will never use copper on my fish again. Luckily I got away from copper before investing $50 in a hanna checker, which is imo the only reliable way to test copper levels.

 

[Ross Petersen]

I was more referring to him saying what "everyone was thinking." Having treated various fish using TTM, copper, CP, and hypo, I believe ttm to be the simplest (haven't tried the velvet method yet, that could be quite a bit more stressful). I did the whole thing on my laundry room counter which is no more than 2x3 ft. Cleanup of the brute totes I use was as simple as spraying down with dilute bleach followed by a hose on the porch.

It's easier than copper or cp because there are no levels or leaching to worry about, no ramp up dosing, no questioning if you're at 1.8 or 2.0 ppm to kill the ever-growing resistant strains of ich and velvet. And you can treat for gill flukes at the same time on days 6 and 12.

CP is my next best. I admit I've only used ttm for ich, so I did CP recently for a fish that likely had velvet based on the lfs that sold him to me.

I will never use copper on my fish again. Luckily I got away from copper before investing $50 in a hanna checker, which is imo the only reliable way to test copper levels.

I appreciate the nuanced response.

I'm definitely transitioning to the TTM or we're encouraging more and more resistant pests by using x/y/z medications... and continuing to pollute waterways...

The hobby needs a wake-up call with respect to pest management it seems. Limiting middle-folks, ensuring fish stores promote balanced quarantine methods (including watchful waiting, lowering stalking densities, TTM, hypo, etc.), seems more important than ever.

Here we are talking about fish quarantining which, as with COVID, would benefit from a greater lens on prevention over reactive management schemes.

 

[Ross Petersen]

Since I set up my recent tank I’ve had two outbreaks of velvet. The first was strictly my fault by not following good QT. The second was due to poor QT practice (bad TTM). My full system is large at 1000 or so gallons so I can’t afford to get infestations again. The first loss was in an observation tank so it was easy to disinfect but the second made it to the DT. That was a nightmare to address.

I’ve since refined my QT/hospital procedure:
1) ALL fishes are treated with copper and anthias also get metro. I can’t wait to see if uronema develops. I need to be proactive.
2) I place the fishes into 5 gallon bins with full strength saltwater.
3) I’ve measured the exact number of drops of copper solution needed to get the water to therapeutic in the bins. 1/3 dose on day 1, 1/3 on day 2, and full on day 3. Full thereafter. Metro every transfer
4) I tank transfer every 2 days for 15 days. This addresses the ammonia issue and also is frequent enough to get ich and velvet (if it survives copper). If the fish shows slight signs of uronema I treat it with formalin before transfer. Since I inspect every 2 days I haven’t seen uronema so bad I could not use formalin but if it is severe I just move the fish to a palliative tank.
5) I move the fishes to observation for 14 days with black mollies and treat with prazipro for 3 treatments on the first, sixth, and eleventh days. I don’t expect flukes to survive 3 treatments.
6) If the fish looks okay on day 14 it goes in.

I no longer leave fishes in same tank for 14 days with copper. Copper is an immunosuppressant so the fishes were getting secondary bacterial infections which meant additional meds to treat.

If this seems like a lot, try getting a few dozen fishes out of a 10x4’ tank to treat them.

Neat combined approach. I'm dosing copper at 2ppm over 30 days for some wrasses. You've got me thinking about cutting the copper duration down. Do you ever dose prazipro and copper concurrently? Thoughts on this?

 

[mikeintoronto]

Neat combined approach. I'm dosing copper at 2ppm over 30 days for some wrasses. You've got me thinking about cutting the copper duration down. Do you ever dose prazipro and copper concurrently? Thoughts on this?

I used to dose them together but you’re technically not supposed to so I’ve stopped. I can’t say I’ve had any ill effects from concurrent treatment but I just don’t do it now.

 

[drstardust]

I no longer leave fishes in same tank for 14 days with copper.

But you said you use copper in the 5 gallon bins during the process of transfers for the 15 day period. Am I missing something, or do you not have copper in the water for the full time? If so, I'm not sure that this would really be different than leaving the fish in copper in one tank for 14 days....would it?
Cool protocol, btw, I may have to try it.

 

[mikeintoronto]

But you said you use copper in the 5 gallon bins during the process of transfers for the 15 day period. Am I missing something, or do you not have copper in the water for the full time? If so, I'm not sure that this would really be different than leaving the fish in copper in one tank for 14 days....would it?
Cool protocol, btw, I may have to try it.

Yes, there is always copper in the bins at therapeutic levels for the 15 days. The problem I, and I’m sure many others, have when leaving the fish in the same copper water is that copper leaves the fish open for secondary infections. These usually come about due to improper or poor cycling of the hospital tank and from the water just getting fouled with the fish in it. The method I’m using avoids the need for a filter (just an air stone) and just keeps the water clean; 100% water change every other day. A clean hospital tank it priority one for me. It’s also useful if you don’t have a QT cycled up yet. By the time the 15 transfer days are up the observation tank should be nicely cycled.

I’ve tried several QT ideas on the internet but this one I made up works the best. I make my own copper solution so copper is literally just pennies a litre.

 

[drstardust]

Yes, there is always copper in the bins at therapeutic levels for the 15 days. The problem I, and I’m sure many others, have when leaving the fish in the same copper water is that copper leaves the fish open for secondary infections. These usually come about due to improper or poor cycling of the hospital tank and from the water just getting fouled with the fish in it. The method I’m using avoids the need for a filter (just an air stone) and just keeps the water clean; 100% water change every other day. A clean hospital tank it priority one for me. It’s also useful if you don’t have a QT cycled up yet. By the time the 15 transfer days are up the observation tank should be nicely cycled.

I’ve tried several QT ideas on the internet but this one I made up works the best. I make my own copper solution so copper is literally just pennies a litre.

Certainly makes sense. I very much like this idea. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Rogueaquariums]

Velvet, etc is everywhere. I have my entire population from my 210 gal sharing a 40 breeder tank in qt right now because of a mishap adding a fish to my tank and velvet appeared. They aren't happy about the cramped space and it took me over two days to scoop everyone up. You do not want to go through this. Copper...every time you qt. Chloroquine Phosphate is recommended by many, and I have heard good things about it. But I have never used it. However... many fine folks have different opinions. This is a sensitive topic for some. Good luck! I can't wait to see how this turns out for you.

I had to go through velvet twice since I have been in the hobby and do not want to re live that again. Some people do not ever QT and don't have any issues at all and then all of a sudden it appears and Velvet and can wipe out your system in hours