Question on upgrading tank
- Thread starter Mil26
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I have never made that big of a jump in size without adding more live rock. I would wait for input from someone that has experience in that. I think that it could cause a cycle, but I am not sure.
From my experience I move to a larger tank. 93 to 135. I moved the live rock and yes I moved my live sand. One thing that got me was my sand did not smell at all. But then again I moved everything in a matter of an hour. I did not go through any cycle. Just my 2 cents from experience. It might be because every time I do a water change I disturb the sand. It was full of pods.
Davileet
Active Member
Since you have to purchase more rock for your new tank to be efficient I would recommend going with dry rock. If you get a live rock it must be from a local pet store in order to prevent a cycle, if you order it from the internet you will have to cycle the rock before putting in tank. Dry rock also has the benefit of not bringing in foreign critters that you do not want, aiptasia, and pest star fish, etc.. The dry rock will not cause a cycle because it does not have any live organisms that die off and cause a cycle. Live rock from LFS won't cause a cycle either because it is already cycled. Live rock from the internet will have die off from shipping, and your tank will need to have the biological critters to deal with that or it will cycle. I do not purchase live rock because I feel it is a big waste of money and local stores ask too much for what they have. Dry rock will become live in about a month. Again, do not buy any live sand as you will pay 10 times too much for snake oil. I have always purchased my dry rock from MarcoRocks.
Also, you are transferring a certain amount of bio load, and the rocks and sand you have now have the ability to control it, so just do not increase the bio load until the new larger tank has had a little while to mature and you will have no problems. I have also always added a cycling product to help my sanity of doing this kind of move. I would recommend MicroBactor by Brightwell Aquatics or something similar, but again this could also be snake oil.
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recess62
Well-Known Member
If you think about it your present live rock is taking care of your present bio load. A transfer to a larger tank with a larger water volume if anything will make your bio load more dilute. As for using your present sand. If you rinse all the detritus one would think that you would not add much nutrients to the new tank. In terms of washing away the bacteria as a scientist I can not imagine you are going to sterilize the sand. Many bacteria have the ability to stick to things and not be able to be washed off. In fact this is the reason the FDA has recently recommended not washing meat before cooking cause washing does not wash off the bacteria Many bacteria reproduce in under 1 hours so if you do the math even if you had only 1 survive, in days the sand would be repopulated. You already have established a bacterial flora that you know works for you. Washing will reduce the numbers of bacteria but will by no means steralize your sand.
I would save some cash and use your sand and go with dry rock. If others disagree then chime in I would love to learn your reasoning.
I would save some cash and use your sand and go with dry rock. If others disagree then chime in I would love to learn your reasoning.
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Recess62:
when you type correct things about rinsing not harming bac, many will overlook them and that's sad. If more people practiced rinsing and washing and export without fear of sterilization, we'd have less problems with sandbeds in prep and maintenance after the fact.
coming from a fmr microbiology tech I agree w your call./
when you type correct things about rinsing not harming bac, many will overlook them and that's sad. If more people practiced rinsing and washing and export without fear of sterilization, we'd have less problems with sandbeds in prep and maintenance after the fact.
coming from a fmr microbiology tech I agree w your call./
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OK I have a few more questions one being will I have to re acclimate my live stock? Also would I be able to add my live stock right away after everything's been set up? Or should I leave the tank for a while just incase it starts a cycle?? Don't want anything dying on me. Also wanted to say Thank you to everyone
merlberg
Valuable Member
From my experience I move to a larger tank. 93 to 135. I moved the live rock and yes I moved my live sand. One thing that got me was my sand did not smell at all. But then again I moved everything in a matter of an hour. I did not go through any cycle. Just my 2 cents from experience. It might be because every time I do a water change I disturb the sand. It was full of pods.
When u say it was full of pods, were they dead n is that y u disturb the sand when u do wc? I ask because i wanted to set up pods in my tank but i thought they would always stay alive. I wouldnt want to mess with my sand i did tht twice by accident when i didnt knw it can start a cycle m it killed a couple fish
Davileet
Active Member
You will not have a cycle as long as you do as I have already stated and do not bring in a heavier bio load. Just make sure your water temperature is in range as best you can. You can acclimate them if you have bags, but I wouldn't worry too much about it. The fish will be glad to have fresh clean saltwater to swim in. I would guess that it can be more stressful if the saltwater you use is not premixed and dissolved completely. I use Brute trash cans to mix my saltwater prior to adding to tank.
Add the fish after the tank is set up with all the sand, rock, and coral in place. You will want to add them soon enough because their temporary home will be running low on oxygen and temperature. You want to do the entire move in one shot and usually as quick as you can.
I disagree. I am also for getting new live sand. Why? Rinsing the old live sand won't remove Phosphate built up and stored over the years. The primary reason to replace old sand is to remove stored phosphates(or other bad compounds). The same reason people replace old live rock, or cook it.
Mil26 -- I would get new cured dry rock. Since it will be cheaper, and it won't have any phosphates or unwanted critters. You already have a lot of wet live rock, so you are good to go on jump starting cycle anyway.
Davileet
Active Member
How can you recommend dry rock in one sentence and recommend live sand in the other? Mil26 already has live sand, and he will be seeding the new dry sand he buys just as he will seed the dry rock. The "live" sand you are telling him to buy is sand that had bacteria on it, which has probably already eaten up all the resources inside the bag, and now are dead bacteria anyway. You may have purchased live sand, but that doesn't mean that is what Mil should do. Live sand could in fact lead to a cycle for Mil26 if it is not rinsed throughly because of the die off in the bag.
As for the phosphates argument, I disagree. When the sand is rinsed until clean, the only remaining phosphates I feel that would leech from the sand would be what is naturally inside the sand. Chances are his water contains chlorines and would nuke anything natural anyway. This is sand we are talking about here, whether he bleaches his sand or not, he will see no negative effect from re use after throughly rinsing until clear.
Also, you need to keep your live rock submerged in water during this move Mil in order to prevent die off on the rocks.
As for the phosphates argument, I disagree. When the sand is rinsed until clean, the only remaining phosphates I feel that would leech from the sand would be what is naturally inside the sand. Chances are his water contains chlorines and would nuke anything natural anyway. This is sand we are talking about here, whether he bleaches his sand or not, he will see no negative effect from re use after throughly rinsing until clear.
Also, you need to keep your live rock submerged in water during this move Mil in order to prevent die off on the rocks.
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I am sorry, perhaps I should have been more clear.
If he currently has Argonite based, crushed coral based live sand he should replace it. Yes, it will have significantly higher phosphates than new live sand.
The difference in phosphates in sand that has been in an aquarium for years, vs sand that came from the ocean is significant. All sand containing calcium carbonate Adsorb phosphate, overtime they become less effective at it, and eventually will even start leaching it into the tank.
I am not talking about phosphates on the outside of the rock from decaying organism I am talking about phosphates that have been picked up through adsorbtion into the calcium carbonate. No simply rinsing under water will not remove that. The danger it causes is something called Phosphate Leaching.
Also adding dry sand, will greatly reduce his biofilter for months compared to live sand.
So to be clear... I am not worried about Phosphates you can rinse away with water. I am talking about the Phosphates that through adsorption are inside the calcium carbonate.
Why did I not recommend replacing the Rock Also?
1. Cost
2. It is being used to prevent a cycle
3. Seeding his new dry rock.
4. If phosphates do become a problem he can always cook it at a later date.
I have had moved and upgraded tanks many times now and since have used my old sand over and over with no ill effect to livestock and corals. Just make sure to rinse the sand very well and keep a portion of the old sand (10-20%) to seed the new tank specially if you will be adding more new sand (i also assumed that since you will be going from a 20g to a 55g).
Since you only have a 20g tank in the first place i assume you probably have at least 20-30lb of sand? Make sure you rinse them in batches for used sand is really hard to rinse out. Also whatever rocks or equipments you will be re using, make sure they are under water to prevent die offs and start a new cycle of your new tank.
I also believe what Davileet said about the live sand in the bag. Most if not all bacteria will be dead by the time it is offered for sale to consumers so rinsing it out will be more beneficial than dumping the whole bag in the new tank.
Since you only have a 20g tank in the first place i assume you probably have at least 20-30lb of sand? Make sure you rinse them in batches for used sand is really hard to rinse out. Also whatever rocks or equipments you will be re using, make sure they are under water to prevent die offs and start a new cycle of your new tank.
I also believe what Davileet said about the live sand in the bag. Most if not all bacteria will be dead by the time it is offered for sale to consumers so rinsing it out will be more beneficial than dumping the whole bag in the new tank.
1. Uh... no. A cycle will not kill everything in his tank and is completely manageable. Not that I agree that anything more than a mini-cycle is likely.
2. 5 months. decades off and on with freshwater.
3. Like most things in aquariums there is more than one way to do things. There are two groups of people on this issue, those that replace the sand, those that keep it. Both are viable strategies, we both gave our reasons for why we would do it. (His way will kill everything: is not a a good debate tactic), when obviously from the comments people of all experience levels have recommended replacing the sand, and keeping it, and done it both ways.
4. You can always keep a portion of the old sand, to seed the new sand just like you did with the live rock. I see a tank upgrade however as a perfect time to remove phosphate rich calcium carbonate in the sandbed.
Davileet
Active Member
Yes, the people with less experience are telling him to get rid of the sand and buy new sand. The experienced people are telling him what a stupid idea that is and not to waste his money on live sand.
A cycle with a decent amount of ammonia has a high likelihood of killing a lot of the fish in the tank. If he didn't buy live sand he wouldn't have to worry about even a small cycle. A cycle is manageable with large and frequent water changes, you're right about that. His old sand will only make up 2/5 of the sand in the new tank anyway, and this phosphate idea is even less negligible.
A cycle with a decent amount of ammonia has a high likelihood of killing a lot of the fish in the tank. If he didn't buy live sand he wouldn't have to worry about even a small cycle. A cycle is manageable with large and frequent water changes, you're right about that. His old sand will only make up 2/5 of the sand in the new tank anyway, and this phosphate idea is even less negligible.
Reefrookie220
Valuable Member
Caribsea or natures ocean sand is instant cycle. Why would you rinse new sand? That seems like suspect advice to me.
Go stir up your established sand bed vigorously and let me know how that works out for you. Lol.
If you rinse sand it kills it. It's completely pointless, unless you buy it dry then it should be rinsed. I have never rinsed new sand and have added more to established tanks. No issues.
Moved sand from tank to tank and fought gha and cyano problems. No thanks.
Go stir up your established sand bed vigorously and let me know how that works out for you. Lol.
If you rinse sand it kills it. It's completely pointless, unless you buy it dry then it should be rinsed. I have never rinsed new sand and have added more to established tanks. No issues.
Moved sand from tank to tank and fought gha and cyano problems. No thanks.
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