Ready to give up on keeping fish (long post)

[mtdaly85]

I just can't keep fish alive. I really don't get it.

I bought two clown fish right after my tank cycled about 3 weeks ago. (The tank had been up and running for two weeks, but with the ghost feeding and zero ammonia and nitrite levels and very faint nitrate reading I figured I was good to go). The clowns have been happy and health since then.

I've added a number of corals since adding the clowns, all of which are very healthy: showing great color and polyp extension. All the hermits and snails are health and crawling around the tank too. Now I know I'm going to get slammed for not running a QT, but I buy these fish from an extremely reputable fish store that has dozens of healthy fish and amazing coral. Now here is where it gets frustrating:

Added melanurus wrasse on 8/18, died on 8/21
Added midas blenny on 8/25, died on 9/1 (after I added the sailfin, see below)
Added sailfin tang on 9/1, died 9/4

I found the wrasse and blenny dead on the bottom of the tank, so I'm not sure what happened to them. However, I watched my sailfin suffer and die. His symptoms were: very rapid breathing, loss of balance / ability to swim upright, hiding behind live rock, swimming into the flow of a powerhead. He showed no visible signs of parasites and died within 8 hours of showing these symptoms. What is even stranger is that the sailfin was acting totally fine on Sunday and Monday (swimming around, nipping at algae, eating well, etc.). This was literally the fastest I've ever seen a fish crash. Also, the dang clowns are fine! No signs of distress.

Tank and params are as follows:

Waterbox 130.4 with 2x AI Hydra 52HD, Vectra M1, 2x MP40wQD
Ammonia / nitrite / nitrate: 0 / 0 / <0.5
Phosphate: 0.08
Alka: fluctuates between 8.5 and 9.0
Salinity: 1.026
Plenty of flow and aeration: water breaking into filter sock in sump and surface agitation when the MP40s ramp up (using reef crest mode)

For all my fish, I float the bag for 20 to 30 minutes and then do a drip acclimate for approximately 45 minutes. I don't turn down the lights or use an acclimation box (maybe that's it?)

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ScooterV]

Don't give up, you have a lot invested already. Just as we ALL did, learn from the mistakes and build on success, read all you can.

Other than QT you mentioned, if the tank just completed cycle 3 weeks ago that is a huge list of things already added, especially fish added so soon when others died and the cause unknown. The symptoms of the sailfin and fast death I would think very likely to be velvet

We will all encourage you to develop a QT process though. Velvet is so rampant lately. No matter how good your LFS is, they simply don't usually have any real QT process or the ability to do it.

Take a breath, step back, and re-organize. The slower, the better.

 

[mtdaly85]

Don't give up, you have a lot invested already. Just as we ALL did, learn from the mistakes and build on success, read all you can.

Other than QT you mentioned, if the tank just completed cycle 3 weeks ago that is a huge list of things already added, especially fish added so soon when others died and the cause unknown. The symptoms of the sailfin and fast death I would think very likely to be velvet

We will all encourage you to develop a QT process though. Velvet is so rampant lately. No matter how good your LFS is, they simply don't usually have any real QT process or the ability to do it.

Take a breath, step back, and re-organize. The slower, the better.

I'm going to set up a QT tank to QT every single thing I buy. Do I need to QT corals? I'm worried that the QT tank I set up won't have the flow / lighting for acros. Should I only worry about QTing fish?

 

[ScooterV]

Everyone has different risk tolerances. After a recent bout with velvet myself (broke my own QT rules) I am quarantining everything wet. The best thing right now would be to get a fish QT running and the fish removed from the display for a 76 day fallow period. The corals already in there can remain then. New corals, to be assured they are clean of parasites, would need to be in QT for 76 days. But, there's the risk tolerance. I'm personally going with 45 days which covers velvet and "most" strains of ich. I'm willing to take a small chance on a more rare strain of ich if I've got most ich, and the velvet that scares me, covered. IF they are doing well I'll go the full 76 though. I'm still playing with my own coral QT though. It does feel like a pain

There's lots of discussions on coral QT and varying means of QT for fish as well. We all settle on what works best for us, including those who still skip it but work hard on otherwise pristine health conditions.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Where are you buying the fish? It could be the fish store is selling sick fish, or fish collected with cyanide. Even if they're eating and look okay from the outside, it's entirely possible that they have a problem that you can't see.

The one fish store near me has very lousy survival rates. My one friend who shopped there had over 80% mortality rates, while I've never lost a single fish I've bought online so long as it arrived alive.

 

[4FordFamily]

You’re dealing with velvet, unfortunately.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/

If you don’t remove and treat all fish and let this tank run fallow this will follow you.

In today’s environment you need to quarantine everything. It’s a sad state of affairs. Sorry for the frustration, but at least you know now.

 

[PiscesPower]

I'm going to set up a QT tank to QT every single thing I buy. Do I need to QT corals? I'm worried that the QT tank I set up won't have the flow / lighting for acros. Should I only worry about QTing fish?

You will find a lot of different opinions on QT'ing corals. Its always a good idea. I will confess there are a few vendors that I don't QT and I tend to buy from them repeatedly. I dip everything (well all that can/should be dipped, again research). My response is more on your comments about acros. I would wait a good long while for you tank to mature and stabilize before adding acros. They can be finicky and most are very sensitive to changes in parameters. If, after a few months, you want to start with some sps corals I would research and go with some of the more hardy ones. I started with stylophora, leptoseris and montipora as my first sps and they all did well. I got cocky and got a few acros and they did not do well...

 

[Humblefish]

Agree with @4FordFamily; it sounds like you have velvet in your system.

 

[mtdaly85]

You will find a lot of different opinions on QT'ing corals. Its always a good idea. I will confess there are a few vendors that I don't QT and I tend to buy from them repeatedly. I dip everything (well all that can/should be dipped, again research). My response is more on your comments about acros. I would wait a good long while for you tank to mature and stabilize before adding acros. They can be finicky and most are very sensitive to changes in parameters. If, after a few months, you want to start with some sps corals I would research and go with some of the more hardy ones. I started with stylophora, leptoseris and montipora as my first sps and they all did well. I got cocky and got a few acros and they did not do well...

Thanks for the feedback, man. I know I'm being cocky with the acros. I keep the salinity stable via an ATO and I keep the alkalinity in check by (as of right now manual) dosing. I dose 2 part, no more than 10mL at a time which should only impact the alkalinity by less than 0.2 when I dose (which, based upon my research is more than acceptable for a swing). The alkalinity stays within 8.5 to 9.0 whenever I test it too. My nitrates and phosphates are check too given the light bioload.

Just curious (I know I could research this, but I'd love your opinion) what other swings can happen in the early stages that can stress out acros?

 

[mtdaly85]

Where are you buying the fish? It could be the fish store is selling sick fish, or fish collected with cyanide. Even if they're eating and look okay from the outside, it's entirely possible that they have a problem that you can't see.

The one fish store near me has very lousy survival rates. My one friend who shopped there had over 80% mortality rates, while I've never lost a single fish I've bought online so long as it arrived alive.

I bought it from a store that had purchased the fish months ago. He was happy and healthy in the tank at this store and I killed him

The store does run hypo-salinity and their tanks with medications / copper / etc., so maybe removing those chemicals caused the issue? The store is not the issue, its a premier store in New England.

 

[PiscesPower]

Thanks for the feedback, man. I know I'm being cocky with the acros. I keep the salinity stable via an ATO and I keep the alkalinity in check by (as of right now manual) dosing. I dose 2 part, no more than 10mL at a time which should only impact the alkalinity by less than 0.2 when I dose (which, based upon my research is more than acceptable for a swing). The alkalinity stays within 8.5 to 9.0 whenever I test it too. My nitrates and phosphates are check too given the light bioload.

Just curious (I know I could research this, but I'd love your opinion) what other swings can happen in the early stages that can stress out acros?

Honestly just general stability and homeostasis of the system. There is a lot more to stability than just testable parameters. Every tank has a personality, as does each reefkeeper! As you add fish & corals, the bioload changes, NO3 & PO4 levels fluctuate as your biological filtration adjusts with each livestock addition. Letting it go through it's 'ugly' stage where algae, diatoms and things often rear their ugly heads. Getting to know the tank, its alk/ca/mg uptake over time as you add corals. Growing LPS & SPS corals uses a bunch of ALK/CA & Mg among other trace elements. I just feel that giving the tank time to mature, and giving you the opportunity to learn the quirks and identity of your own tank, gives a better chance of long term success.

 

[Big G]

The store does run hypo-salinity and their tanks with medications / copper / etc., so maybe removing those chemicals caused the issue? The store is not the issue, its a premier store in New England.

The only QT you can truly trust is your own. Think of it this way. If you are caring for and treating 2 or 3 fish prophylactically in your QT. You can keep a pretty close eye on each and everyone of those fish. And you can monitor the meds, copper, etc. that you are using with pretty good accuracy. Imagine trying to do that in a fish store with all those fish and all those tanks, with fish coming and going.

 

[ScooterV]

I bought it from a store that had purchased the fish months ago. He was happy and healthy in the tank at this store and I killed him

The store does run hypo-salinity and their tanks with medications / copper / etc., so maybe removing those chemicals caused the issue? The store is not the issue, its a premier store in New England.

Don't be so hard on yourself

As far as the LFS, you just perfectly described part of the problem. Many run copper, but below full therapeutic levels. It keeps the fish looking better, but is only masking the problem. Take them home, no more copper, and the issue presents itself. Even if copper is maintained, the fish would still have to be in it long enough and the turnover of fish can be rapid so not in it long enough.

 

[Big G]

+1 ^^^ Sub therapeutic treatment of fish with copper is a real problem. The copper slowly wears off and velvet comes roaring back a few days, up to 30 days later. Often that velvet comes roaring back without the usual visual symptoms and fish suddenly start dying without warning. Happened to me. Lost a whole tank of fish in QT before figuring out what was going on. Tough few days. Very tough. Without the support of the kind folks here on R2R, especially Humblefish, 4Fordfamily and others, I would have given up. The learning curve in this hobby is very steep and can be cruel. But haven't lost a fish since. Lesson learned. Prophylactically treating all incoming fish immediately starting with copper, using a Hanna HL Copper Checker, saves fish and greatly lowers stress on both the fish and me

 

[Reefer1978]

I bought it from a store that had purchased the fish months ago. He was happy and healthy in the tank at this store and I killed him

The store does run hypo-salinity and their tanks with medications / copper / etc., so maybe removing those chemicals caused the issue? The store is not the issue, its a premier store in New England.

What's the store if you don't mind me asking?

 

[mtdaly85]

What's the store if you don't mind me asking?

I don't want to spread any rumors or bad press, sorry man.

 

[Reefer1978]

I don't want to spread any rumors or bad press, sorry man.

Fair enough, I can respect that. I'll just say one thing, I've been to all the top stores in new England area, I travel the region all the time. Every single store has issues, and I've had sick fish from all.

Most stores run copper. They don't run therapeutic levels, as copper is toxic and will kill fish eventually. The small level stores run hides the symptoms and makes fish look healthy, but it does not guarantee you are getting a fish with no infection.

Hypo-salinity is also an issue. 45 minute drip is not enough to take a fish out of hypo. It should take days.

 

[Reefer1978]

It's not the stores' fault, please don't think that's what I am trying to say. It's the nature of the industry. Fish go from the ocean into collector's tanks, then into distributors / wholesalers, then into stores. They can catch a bug in any of those places. For stores, treating all incoming fish is a very hard task. Thus it's up to us, hobbyists, to make sure we keep our animals healthy upon arrival.

 

[ScooterV]

What's the store if you don't mind me asking?

I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to give the specific name. However, this issue doesn't make them "bad". It's a broad issue going back to the wholesale sources they all use as well. It's not even realistic for a LFS to do a true quarantine unless charging significantly more. It would be great to see improvements at all levels of the supply chain, but it's still on us to ensure the fish is healthy or roll the dice.

Now, if the LFS outright says there is no need to QT without showing the rigorous QT they are doing, that would be deceptive and bad. A good LFS will admit to their limitations. Getting a fish from them with velvet doesn't make them bad in itself.

Edit: lol, no clue how I quoted the wrong post.

 

[Reefer1978]

Now, if the LFS outright says there is no need to QT without showing the rigorous QT they are doing, that would be deceptive and bad.

Fun fact, I had a top store in NYC area tell me there's no need to QT since they run copper. Then I came home and tested their copper lvl, it was barely noticeable.