Reasons for Doing Water Changes?

[TbyZ]

Reasons not to do water changes


1. Minimise variables

2. Adding unwanted, unknown elements, un-balancing the aquarium.

3. Guessing what elements have been removed from the aquarium, & guessing what elements to put back in.

Water changes have worked for a long time, but this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better way to do things, or that improvements can’t be made.


Triton philosophy.

Also –

“let’s say that, during the interval between water changes, the corals have adjusted to a phosphate level, magnesium level, vanadium level, manganese level, etc., etc., etc. that, although perhaps lower than NSW (natural sea water) values, was stable, and tolerable for them. Suddenly, they’re receiving a “reset” of these parameters, with dramatic increases in these levels, along with an accompanying increase in pH, alkalinity, and possibly even a temperature change as well. And, let’s assume that your salt mix contained exactly the trace elements in the exact amounts indicated on the label (as many reefers can now tell you- not all do…). To corals that have been living in a closed system, this is quite a shock to absorb, wouldn’t you say?”


More - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...luating-the-triton-method-objectively.183853/

 

[radiata]

Yes; but (a) that's not doing 'regular water changes' ie, its a one off water change, & (b) a lack of, or, an abundance of "Z" wouldn't necessarily be due to either doing water changes or not doing water changes.

Seems to me that the above is the first time in this thread that you've mentioned "regular water changes". You called this thread "Reasons for Doing Water Changes", no?

 

[TbyZ]

Seems to me that the above is the first time in this thread that you've mentioned "regular water changes". You called this thread "Reasons for Doing Water Changes", no?

Post # 4. quote "I'm asking if there are any other reasons to do them apart from the reasons i stated, specifically for normal maintenance."

In any case, I expected Water Changes to be taken as 'regular water changes', which I think it has been.

 

[ReefBeta]

Reasons not to do water changes


1. Minimise variables

2. Adding unwanted, unknown elements, un-balancing the aquarium.

3. Guessing what elements have been removed from the aquarium, & guessing what elements to put back in.

Water changes have worked for a long time, but this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better way to do things, or that improvements can’t be made.


Triton philosophy.

Also –

“let’s say that, during the interval between water changes, the corals have adjusted to a phosphate level, magnesium level, vanadium level, manganese level, etc., etc., etc. that, although perhaps lower than NSW (natural sea water) values, was stable, and tolerable for them. Suddenly, they’re receiving a “reset” of these parameters, with dramatic increases in these levels, along with an accompanying increase in pH, alkalinity, and possibly even a temperature change as well. And, let’s assume that your salt mix contained exactly the trace elements in the exact amounts indicated on the label (as many reefers can now tell you- not all do…). To corals that have been living in a closed system, this is quite a shock to absorb, wouldn’t you say?”


More - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...luating-the-triton-method-objectively.183853/

I actually think those point are for water changes, not against it.

When not doing water changes, more testing have to be done, especially on trace elements, all those are variables. For like triton method, ICP tests are only done once or month, right? So the dosing in between is guessing, and at the end the test reveal the result of the guess, then adjust. If you're dosing trace elements without testing, that's even more of a guess. Water change is less of an guess here as it's surely getting close to the "initial" level, the percentage it move equal to the percentage of water change. And when you're only relying on carbon to remove DOC, you don't know what is not removed from the water, or say what unwanted is left in water.

About triton's philosophy, I don't think the change is bad. Corals are capable of handling that degree of changes, it happens in the natural sea. I would rather to have them adapt to that degree of change regularly, than get too used to exact parameter, cause there will still be case water changes are needed, such as needed for medication, doing rescaping, or taking water out for whatever reasons. If that degree of changes could mean harm, I would be more worried when the corals haven't been experienced it for prolong period of time.

 

[TbyZ]

I actually think those point are for water changes, not against it.

When not doing water changes, more testing have to be done, especially on trace elements, all those are variables. For like triton method, ICP tests are only done once or month, right? So the dosing in between is guessing, and at the end the test reveal the result of the guess, then adjust. If you're dosing trace elements without testing, that's even more of a guess. Water change is less of an guess here as it's surely getting close to the "initial" level, the percentage it move equal to the percentage of water change. And when you're only relying on carbon to remove DOC, you don't know what is not removed from the water, or say what unwanted is left in water.

About triton's philosophy, I don't think the change is bad. Corals are capable of handling that degree of changes, it happens in the natural sea. I would rather to have them adapt to that degree of change regularly, than get too used to exact parameter, cause there will still be case water changes are needed, such as needed for medication, doing rescaping, or taking water out for whatever reasons. If that degree of changes could mean harm, I would be more worried when the corals haven't been experienced it for prolong period of time.

A balanced suppliment system typically replenishes trace elements in line with the amount of calcium taken up by the system. It's the equivalent of adding a salt mix water change.

Carbon takes up organics as does bacteria, sponges, bivalves, etc, as i mentioned in previous threads.

 

[ReefBeta]

A balanced suppliment system typically replenishes trace elements in line with the amount of calcium taken up by the system. It's the equivalent of adding a salt mix water change.

Carbon takes up organics as does bacteria, sponges, bivalves, etc, as i mentioned in previous threads.

What does it mean by "in line with calcium taken up"? Are they always in the same ratio regardless or what is growing in the tank?

Also do we know what are taken up by carbon and bacteria etc. Or more importantly, what are not taken up?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What does it mean by "in line with calcium taken up"? Are they always in the same ratio regardless or what is growing in the tank?

Also do we know what are taken up by carbon and bacteria etc. Or more importantly, what are not taken up?

No and yes and yes.

The elements are known, but quantifying them in any of these broad processes is not possible since it will depend too much on the specifics.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Reasons not to do water changes


1. Minimise variables

2. Adding unwanted, unknown elements, un-balancing the aquarium.

3. Guessing what elements have been removed from the aquarium, & guessing what elements to put back in.

Water changes have worked for a long time, but this doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better way to do things, or that improvements can’t be made.


Triton philosophy.

I don't think there is any doubt that the theory behind the Triton method of testing everything (not currently possible, but in theory, anyway) and supplementing everything independently (currently possible) makes the most "scientific sense", especially if it is coupled with water changes with a mix that has parameters matching (or below) the tank target levels for everything significant (to drop things that are too high, whether they be inorganic or organic).

One fly in this theoretical ointment is how to deal with anything that rises above target levels. We do not have the ability to selectively deplete a single element, aside from water changes with a target level mix.

A second fly in the ointment is cost.

 

[TbyZ]

One fly in this theoretical ointment is how to deal with anything that rises above target levels. We do not have the ability to selectively deplete a single element, aside from water changes with a target level mix.

A second fly in the ointment is cost.

I suppliment A.F. Components 1 2 & 3.
I make the mix myself. It includes calcium chloride, sodium bicarbonate & non sodium chloride salts, all powder form. The other part that makes up the mix is Components Strong, which are liquids & consist of part A- strontium and barium, part B - concentrated heavy metals, Part C - iodide and fluoride, & Part K - concentrated potassium.

If my ICP test shows any of those elements at elevated levels, I can leave them out of the mix & let the particular element deplete over a period of time.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I suppliment A.F. Components 1 2 & 3.
I make the mix myself. It includes calcium chloride, sodium bicarbonate & non sodium chloride salts, all powder form. The other part that makes up the mix is Components Strong, which are liquids & consist of part A- strontium and barium, part B - concentrated heavy metals, Part C - iodide and fluoride, & Part K - concentrated potassium.

If my ICP test shows any of those elements at elevated levels, I can leave them out of the mix & let the particular element deplete over a period of time.

Too few supplements to really make this work in all cases.

Example: If barium is elevated and strontium is depleted, you need a different supplement for the strontium, and have to hope that barium is depleting faster than it is being added by other means (it may not be).

 

[TbyZ]

I

One fly in this theoretical ointment is how to deal with anything that rises above target levels. We do not have the ability to selectively deplete a single element, aside from water changes with a target level mix.

A second fly in the ointment is cost.

Another thing is that an aquarium that gets regular water changes can still end up having elements way above target levels, either from supplement dosing or from the salt mix itself.

Doing a few partial water changes to make specific alterations is a separate issue to what I'm getting at, which is efficient ways to negate the need for regular water changes.

 

[dz6t]

I can see there are several reason to do regular water changes for most of the hobbyists:
1. Many hobbyists do not have a matured sponge system that can process DOC effectively. Even matured reef tanks most likely do not have a very diverse system like the ocean.
2. Many greasy molecules, small or large, that released by coral and other marine invertebrates for competition, are not well removed by activated carbon regardless what grade of activated carbon used. These compounds can inhibit coral growth at least.
3. When you dose those elements, despite little research have been done on how many of them can positively or negatively affect marine life, you are basically resetting or over dosing them, which without real time monitoring in place, I am not sure how that benefit the animals in your tank.

 

[dz6t]

Doing a few partial water changes to make specific alterations is a separate issue to what I'm getting at, which is efficient ways to negate the need for regular water changes.

When you do water change to reduce some elements at higher level, you also change the concentration of other elements.
That may not be important for trace elements, they are in the natural sea water but they may not necessarily be important to coral.

 

[dz6t]

@TbyZ
I see you are in Australia, do you have access to natural sea water?

 

[TbyZ]

I
3. When you dose those elements, despite little research have been done on how many of them can positively or negatively affect marine life, you are basically resetting or over dosing them, which without real time monitoring in place, I am not sure how that benefit the animals in your tank.

I don't agree - that dosing elements, that get depleted, can be considered overdosing.

Most people who do regular water changes still supplement the major elements daily, & in nany cases also dose the minor & trace elements as well.

 

[dz6t]

Reasons not to do water changes


1. Minimise variables

2. Adding unwanted, unknown elements, un-balancing the aquarium.

3. Guessing what elements have been removed from the aquarium, & guessing what elements to put in

More - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/r...luating-the-triton-method-objectively.183853/

Actually these three points are the reasons for frequent water change, as frequent as possible such as the continuously water change.

 

[TbyZ]

When you do water change to reduce some elements at higher level, you also change the concentration of other elements.
That may not be important for trace elements, they are in the natural sea water but they may not necessarily be important to coral.

I think you're forgetting that some elements can end up being above target levels, over time, simply by doing regular water changes.

 

[TbyZ]

@TbyZ
I see you are in Australia, do you have access to natural sea water?

Yes, pristein supply 5 minute drive away.

 

[SmokeyGnar]

I think you're forgetting that some elements can end up being above target levels, over time, simply by doing regular water changes.

This is why it’s important to test even if you’re not dosing


Water changes are also important for many reasons besides the chemistry. I did my weekly change yesterday and was amazed by how much stuff I stirred up while scraping the glass, blowing off the rocks, and just working in the tank. All of this detritus and assorted gunk got siphoned right out. I also noticed a few extra empty snail shells hidden behind a rock, indicating that it’s time to update my cleanup crew. I probably would miss this stuff if I wasn’t elbow deep in the tank once a week

 

[dz6t]

I think you're forgetting that some elements can end up being above target levels, over time, simply by doing regular water changes.

Why is that? What is the source of these elements?