Reef Buffers, pH - Seachem?

[fishkeeper2]

What is the safest reef supplement for correcting pH?

We know that stable pH can be achieved with good aeration, using limewater or other high pH alkalinity supplements, increasing carbonate alkalinity, and borate. Borate however has a few unwanted side effects.

Seachem Marine Buffer - Marine Buffer has a pK of 8.3. PK is a number that represents the pH of a buffer. On the plus side it cannot be overdosed. On the negative it contains borate. Due

Seachem Reef Buffer - Reef Buffer has a heavier carbonate influence than Marine Buffer giving it a higher pK than Marine Buffer. 8.6 specifically. Great, most recommendations are to use this additive and to test alkalinity to ensure you do not overdose.

Seachem Reef Kalkwasser - a very pure calcium hydroxide for increasing calcium. Promises to increase pH with no impact to carbonate alkalinity. Used to create limewater. Not recommended for novices by Seachem. I suspect it must raise alkalinity in some way in order to affect pH.

Seachem Reef Carbonate - a blend of carbonate and bicarbonate salts. Seachem Reef builder is the powdered version of this product. They're not exactly identical since they comprise of different salts.

What do you use to manage pH?

 

[cmcoker]

If I was trying to manage pH, I would only try to manage my tanks CO2 level... So long as it's alkalinity is in desired range.
IMO using any chemical additive to manage pH is a poor solution and not likely stable

 

[fishkeeper2]

If I was trying to manage pH, I would only try to manage my tanks CO2 level... So long as it's alkalinity is in desired range.
IMO using any chemical additive to manage pH is a poor solution and not likely stable

Interesting. Thanks. So it is really the amount of surface water breakage and bubbles popping at the surface that we are talking about here, to translate what you are saying into practice. Adding air stones, skimmer air, wave makers, etc. Do you use any bubble makers I.e. Hydor ario?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is the safest reef supplement for correcting pH?

Safest? Not sure how to interpret that question. Aeration is perfectly safe and will eliminate the daily pH swing if you have enough, although the pH may be lower than you want if your home has excess CO2 in it. Taking the air from outside and/or putting a CO2 scrubber on the tank will help raise the pH if it is too low.

Sodium carbonate (baked baking soda) is generally safe, but I suppose one can overdose it or dose too much too fast. It will boost alk and pH.

Limewater will boost pH the most, but needs to be added slowly. It was my primary choice for calcium and alkalinity for 20 years. The tank pH got higher than I wanted if I didn't run my skimmer.

Seachem Marine Buffer - Marine Buffer has a pK of 8.3. PK is a number that represents the pH of a buffer. On the plus side it cannot be overdosed. On the negative it contains borate. Due

That is not correct. It is an alkalinity supplement and can be overdosed. It is a very poor choice anyway if you need pH raising (sodium bicarbonate is better and limewater is much better), and it will slowly raise borate in a reef tank which is not desirable, but if you chose to dose it, only dose it to the extent that you need alkalinity.

 

[cmcoker]

Interesting. Thanks. So it is really the amount of surface water breakage and bubbles popping at the surface that we are talking about here, to translate what you are saying into practice. Adding air stones, skimmer air, wave makers, etc. Do you use any bubble makers I.e. Hydor ario?

It's the amount of CO2 in your house, so using an skimmer airline run outside or a CO2 scrubber. Or opening the windows more if that's possible...
I have a skimmer for nutrient export, I use kalk in my ATO for alkalinity, my pH has been fine with with this scheme but I'm not doing those things trying to hit a certain pH if that makes sense.

 

[FishGuyBri]

So ladies and gentleman help me out. I cannot run an outside line. I have a 90 gallon new tank, cycle complete. It now has two BG chromis and a clove polyp. My ph runs 7.4 with my hermetically sealed condo. It runs 7.9 with windows open, but this isn't practical. I added CO2 scrubber to my skimmer from BRS. After 12 hours, ph is 7.6 and half the full canister is color changed. Is there anything else I can do? I've not dosed anything yet as I just added coral yesterday. Alk is 9.0 using Hanna. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 5. Any ideas?? Oh and for flow I have 2 sicce voyager 2 and my return pump is breaking surface quite well. Quite a few microbubbles but not too many. Skimmer is tuned in to produce about 1 cup of wet skimmate a week with a dark grey color and foul odor.

 

[cmcoker]

So ladies and gentleman help me out. I cannot run an outside line. I have a 90 gallon new tank, cycle complete. It now has two BG chromis and a clove polyp. My ph runs 7.4 with my hermetically sealed condo. It runs 7.9 with windows open, but this isn't practical. I added CO2 scrubber to my skimmer from BRS. After 12 hours, ph is 7.6 and half the full canister is color changed. Is there anything else I can do? I've not dosed anything yet as I just added coral yesterday. Alk is 9.0 using Hanna. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 5. Any ideas?? Oh and for flow I have 2 sicce voyager 2 and my return pump is breaking surface quite well. Quite a few microbubbles but not too many. Skimmer is tuned in to produce about 1 cup of wet skimmate a week with a dark grey color and foul odor.

Is a window near the tank? Would it be possible to crack the window enough to run an airline for your skimmer and use some of the foam they use for window air conditioners to block off the rest of the opening along the window? Then throw on some of those tension window locks..
Id also try and incorporate as large a refugium as possible...
But how are you testing? Drop test, pH pen?

 

[fishkeeper2]

Safest? Not sure how to interpret that question. Aeration is perfectly safe and will eliminate the daily pH swing if you have enough, although the pH may be lower than you want if your home has excess CO2 in it. Taking the air from outside and/or putting a CO2 scrubber on the tank will help raise the pH if it is too low.

Sodium carbonate (baked baking soda) is generally safe, but I suppose one can overdose it or dose too much too fast. It will boost alk and pH.

Limewater will boost pH the most, but needs to be added slowly. It was my primary choice for calcium and alkalinity for 20 years. The tank pH got higher than I wanted if I didn't run my skimmer.



By safest I mean safest for the tank inhabitants with the lowest risk of overdosing. Closest to Fool Proof.

That is not correct. It is an alkalinity supplement and can be overdosed.

That is why I thought. Chemically, not even sure how Seachem can state that the Marine Buffer product cannot overdosed.

What could one expect from overdosing on Marine Buffer? From what I understand it has low carbonates.

 

[fishkeeper2]

Is a window near the tank? Would it be possible to crack the window enough to run an airline for your skimmer and use some of the foam they use for window air conditioners to block off the rest of the opening along the window? Then throw on some of those tension window locks..
Id also try and incorporate as large a refugium as possible...
But how are you testing? Drop test, pH pen?

A relatively low cost solution is ReefKeeper Lite with a pH probe. $199 on marine depot. Calibration packed are $2 bucks.

 

[fishkeeper2]

It's the amount of CO2 in your house, so using an skimmer airline run outside or a CO2 scrubber. Or opening the windows more if that's possible...
I have a skimmer for nutrient export, I use kalk in my ATO for alkalinity, my pH has been fine with with this scheme but I'm not doing those things trying to hit a certain pH if that makes sense.

Thanks for the feedback cmcoker.

I ran a test last night on a 65 gallon setup with high alkalinity and low pH. I opened the top of the tank, ran a bubbler, removed skimmer silencer, and placed a power head slightly out of the tank. The tank is in a well ventilated 5000 sq ft house so I doubt there is high CO2 build up inside.

The result was an increase in pH from 7.75 to 7.85 over night.

I will keep tinkering with this approach. Much appreciated.

 

[cmcoker]

Thanks for the feedback cmcoker.

I ran a test last night on a 65 gallon setup with high alkalinity and low pH. I opened the top of the tank, ran a bubbler, removed skimmer silencer, and placed a power head slightly out of the tank. The tank is in a well ventilated 5000 sq ft house so I doubt there is high CO2 build up inside.

The result was an increase in pH from 7.75 to 7.85 over night.

I will keep tinkering with this approach. Much appreciated.

To further assess the co2 indoors you could take a container of saltwater from your tank outside and run a bubbler for an hour or so, then test the pH and see if it has improved.
I'm assuming you are using a pH meter of some sort. Has it been calibrated recently? If so which calibration fluid did you use, 4.0, 7.0, or 10.0? Ideally you want to calibrate in the range you will be test so 4.0 would be the least useful..
Just some ideas to further your investigation

 

[FishGuyBri]

A relatively low cost solution is ReefKeeper Lite with a pH probe. $199 on marine depot. Calibration packed are $2 bucks.

I have apex 2016 and confirm with Red Sea kit. I calibrated the apex. They match pretty close. No window near the tank, but simply opening one window makes the ph go up. Can't run a line :-(

Have decent fuge, waiting for chaeto to come in

 

[cmcoker]

I have apex 2016 and confirm with Red Sea kit. I calibrated the apex. They match pretty close. No window near the tank, but simply opening one window makes the ph go up. Can't run a line :-(

Have decent fuge, waiting for chaeto to come in

Short of removing some weather stripping from a door near the tank... [emoji16]

I'd just carry on with the scrubber, and get the refugium going. I'd consider an extended light cycle for the fuge to help the pH over more hours.
Once you are ready to start dosing I'd suggest kalk for its help with pH. I just wouldnt dose anything to bring pH up, if that makes sense. In other words it's fine to get pH help from alk supplements, so long as it's dosed according to the alkalinity need, not the pH need..

 

[fishkeeper2]

To further assess the co2 indoors you could take a container of saltwater from your tank outside and run a bubbler for an hour or so, then test the pH and see if it has improved.
I'm assuming you are using a pH meter of some sort. Has it been calibrated recently? If so which calibration fluid did you use, 4.0, 7.0, or 10.0? Ideally you want to calibrate in the range you will be test so 4.0 would be the least useful..
Just some ideas to further your investigation

Yes. Using an RKL pH probe calibrated 2 days ago. I used 7.0 and a 10.0 calibration packets. The test results are pretty solid so far. I might try that, good idea. I suspect there is a CO2 build up in the tank.

 

[fishkeeper2]

So ladies and gentleman help me out. I cannot run an outside line. I have a 90 gallon new tank, cycle complete. It now has two BG chromis and a clove polyp. My ph runs 7.4 with my hermetically sealed condo. It runs 7.9 with windows open, but this isn't practical. I added CO2 scrubber to my skimmer from BRS. After 12 hours, ph is 7.6 and half the full canister is color changed. Is there anything else I can do? I've not dosed anything yet as I just added coral yesterday. Alk is 9.0 using Hanna. Ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 5. Any ideas?? Oh and for flow I have 2 sicce voyager 2 and my return pump is breaking surface quite well. Quite a few microbubbles but not too many. Skimmer is tuned in to produce about 1 cup of wet skimmate a week with a dark grey color and foul odor.

Another suggestion is to add Seachem Reef Buffer.
http://www.seachem.com/reef-buffer.php

It has a pk of 8.6, so don't over do it. It should do the trick. Get that alkalinity up higher.

Think about the substrate you are using. I prefer live sand with a high amount of argonite. Helps keep pH stable too. I've run a closed system for 2 years without water changes with no pH issues. But, apparently you have to watch CO2 build up.

 

[fishkeeper2]

Thanks Randy. By safest I mean what is safest for the tank inhabitants with respect to reducing the probability of their owner overdosing the tank.

I am also going to try adding some calcium hydroxide (Seachem Kalkwasser mixture), since the alkalinity is fine and it should not impact carbonate alkalinity.

 

[cmcoker]

Thanks Randy. By safest I mean what is safest for the tank inhabitants with respect to reducing the probability of their owner overdosing the tank.

I am also going to try adding some calcium hydroxide (Seachem Kalkwasser mixture), since the alkalinity is fine and it should not impact carbonate alkalinity.

Kalkwasser does impact alkalinity... I use it as the sole means of alkalinity and calcium supplement on my display

From Randy's article about limewater:
The calcium ions in the solution obviously supply calcium to the aquarium, and the hydroxide ions supply alkalinity. Hydroxide itself provides alkalinity (both by definition and as measured with an alkalinity test), but corals consume alkalinity as bicarbonate, not hydroxide. Fortunately, when limewater is used in a reef aquarium, it quickly combines with atmospheric and dissolved carbon dioxide and bicarbonate to form bicarbonate and carbonate:
4. OH- + CO2 à HCO3-

5. OH- + HCO3- à CO3-- + H2O

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy. By safest I mean what is safest for the tank inhabitants with respect to reducing the probability of their owner overdosing the tank.

I am also going to try adding some calcium hydroxide (Seachem Kalkwasser mixture), since the alkalinity is fine and it should not impact carbonate alkalinity.

Sorry, it boosts alkalinity too.

There is just no supplement that raises pH without boosting alkalinity. It is theoretically impossible.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This has a full discussion of all they ways to diagnose and deal with pH issues:

pH And The Reef Aquarium
http://www.reefedition.com/ph-and-the-reef-aquarium/

 

[AdamNC]

One thing I've found is Aquavitro Balance. It will raise your pH a good amount but must be used daily. Even though it states it will not affect Alk, it will unless you do it a slightly different way then described. Simple solution is to take a cup of RO/DI water and dose your amount in there. Then slowly dose into a high flow area. For me I was dosing into the surface overflow for my skimmer. pH raised .1 for every 7ml I dosed and did not seem to affect my Alk at all. Dosing the whole med sized bottle at 14ml/day has brought my day time high of 8.0 up to 8.35 and my night time low from 7.7 up to 8.0.

So tl:dr
Aquavitro Balance
Dose in a cup of RO/DI
Then dose into a high flow area
If you dose directly into the tank it will affect your pH