Reefers may over-rely on personal experience to accept or reject truth

[TokenReefer]

Pretty much applies to everything!

It does unfortunately.

I think there should be absolutes such that science, math, etc provide, taught/provided so that one's own personal experiences can be weighed against these in order to better gauge their worth and meaning in the context of the real world

 

[Dan_P]

There seems to be a lot more truth now than there used to be.
Who can argue with the truth?
I don't anymore.

I took a lot of science classes. I don't remember the word truth being used much in them back then.
That was before science became settled like it is now.

It might that science fact is threatening more traditions these days. Also, folks tend to conflate science fact with policy based on science fact. Hate the policy but don’t drag down science, or something like that.

 

[TokenReefer]

Also, folks tend to conflate science fact with policy based on science fact

What do you mean by policy?

 

[WVNed]

It might that science fact is threatening more traditions these days. Also, folks tend to conflate science fact with policy based on science fact. Hate the policy but don’t drag down science, or something like that.

Like I said
I don't argue anymore

Then
We discussed truth in philosophy class and observation and theory in science class.

Now
No need to debate truth. Just accept it.

 

[TokenReefer]

Philosophy, policy, truths.. I'm getting confused.. probably in over my head. I'll go back to the "what is this" threads thanks for the stimulating thoughts tho

 

[WVNed]

Philosophy, policy, truths.. I'm getting confused.. probably in over my head. I'll go back to the "what is this" threads thanks for the stimulating thoughts tho

Me too.

In a world of truths what I think and even my personal experiences no longer matter.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What do you mean by policy?

Policy involves an action of some sort even if that action is to do nothing.

Science never says what actions should be done. At best, it provides predictions of what the effects of different actions are likely to be.

 

[Oldreefer44]

Agree 100% One of the hardest things to learn for me was to resist the "latest and greatest" solutions. For those of us who read lots of posts on this thread or follow certain 'experts" om You Tube it is hard to resist when someone says "this is the way I do it" or this is the light, or any other piece of equipment, that is "best" for growing corals. I have found that consistency is most important and that it is probably better to achieve that versus chasing ones tail to try and achieve perfection. As soon as I hear that someone is claiming that they have discovered a "better way to do it" I find my skepticism hat and pull it on. Side benefits to this approach is a much less cluttered garage and a much fuller bank account.

 

[TokenReefer]

Policy involves an action of some sort even if that action is to do nothing.

Science never says what actions should be done. At best, it provides predictions of what the effects of different actions are likely to be.

Yeah, I sort of wanted him to expand a little on maybe what he's referring to/seen regarding policy dictating science fact/action; out of curiosity, not disagreement

 

[Sump Crab]

I may be a Neanderthal but I’ll always trust my own experiences, whether it be in the hobby or life, over what any “science” tries to tell me otherwise.

 

[flashsmith]

So many here think "their" way is the best way. There are all kinds of ways to get the same results in this hobby. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa but the end result ends up being the same thing. People here tend to forget that and get upset easily...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I may be a Neanderthal but I’ll always trust my own experiences, whether it be in the hobby or life, over what any “science” tries to tell me otherwise.

Again, no one is suggesting you should do otherwise, and you are misinterpreting the nature of this thread.

what you should not do, IMO, is blindly accept that your interpretation of what is happening in your tank translates to a different system, and if your experience is contrary to other facts, then it is desirable to explore why, before suggesting others do the same.

Tap water is an absolutely perfect example. Some folks use tap water just fine. Science does not say you cannot. In fact, it suggests many folks can. But it also suggests that with more than 1 ppm copper in that water, that some are unlikely to be successful doing so.

Science does not contradict your experience, nor make it any less correct.

What it does do is provide a very clear rationale for being cautious with blanket statements that tap water is ok based on your personal experience.

 

[alain Bouchard]

So many here think "their" way is the best way. There are all kinds of ways to get the same results in this hobby. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa but the end result ends up being the same thing. People here tend to forget that and get upset easily...

like my friend used to say when he was teaching me radio tower work: I will teach you 3 ways to do the work, there is the right way, there is the wrong way, and there is my way. Make your own.

 

[Aqua Man]

what you should not do, IMO, is blindly accept that your interpretation of what is happening in your tank translates to a different system, and if your experience is contrary to other facts, then it is desirable to explore why, before suggesting others do the same.

I don’t even have interpretations of what’s going on in my own tanks! This is a most frustrating and rewarding hobby.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t even have interpretations of what’s going on in my own tanks! This is a most frustrating and rewarding hobby.

I think we need to be honest and admit that is true for all of us for many important aspects of reef tanks.

Some simple facts cannot be ignored without consequences (hard corals need calcium and alk, for example) while many of the most problematic biological issues may have so many known and unknown factors impacting them that we are relegated to recommendations based on what usually works. In such scenarios, the science may be very complicated and is not wrong, it’s just not complete.

 

[Dan_P]

What do you mean by policy?

A possible example.

Science fact: wearing a certain type of face mask reduces airborne transmission of a virus.

Policy based on science fact: we should wear masks while conducting business in buildings.

While the policy is fair game to debate and criticize, the science fact that a mask reduces viral transmission is much less assailable. It is, just as gravity is.

 

[Dan_P]

I think almost all debated subjects have 2 sides with valid points. There is a difference between debating those subjects and accepting facts without researching arguments for both side. Having more people accepting something as a fact dont make it a fact. IE. I understand and agree with most arguments in favor of fallow and quarantine, but I prefer going without, because I understand and agree on many points on this side too, and it fits better with my ways of doing things. I think that science shouldnt be an argument to stop debate and everybody should keep its mind open about the possibility of being wrong.

This is a good point about cost and risk reduction.

Science teaches how quarantining and going fallow work. That is pretty much undebatable. What is debatable is the level of risk -probability of something happens - and consequence - how bad will it be if it happens. With a lack of information, the probability can be debated or even ignored. The consequence is probably not so debatable. An infection is an an infection. So, when you don’t quarantine you are discounting the probability or saying the cost of quarantining is more costly than restarting the aquarium, or whatever. It is a personal decision about how you want to do the hobby. This where you might be told your course is unwise. What you do here is listen for a better estimate of the risk. Did you get it right?

 

[TokenReefer]

A possible example.

Science fact: wearing a certain type of face mask reduces airborne transmission of a virus.

Policy based on science fact: we should wear masks while conducting business in buildings.

While the policy is fair game to debate and criticize, the science fact that a mask reduces viral transmission is much less assailable. It is, just as gravity is.

Good example. I wasn't trying to call you out btw, just continue the conversation a little more

 

[Dan_P]

Good example. I wasn't trying to call you out btw, just continue the conversation a little more

Yeah, no problem. Being called out is not a bad thing in my book.

 

[Paul B]

Of course I like science, I think we all like science even if it just makes us think we are smart but there is a problem with science. Quite a few problems as a matter of fact. Science can tell us for instance the lifespan of a particular parasite at a specific temperature in a certain salinity while it is infecting a specific fish. That is great and we want to know that as it may help us determine what we should do to prevent an infection but it is very narrow minded and doesn't help much in a real hobbiests tank.

I feel personal experience is much more valuable because of the variables. When Burgess did that study of the parasite lifespan he discovered all sorts of interesting parasitic traits. But it doesn't correlate to much useful information because that study completely disregarded the state of health of the fish or if it could become immune to that parasite.

I recently went to a Neurologist talk about MS because my wife has it and there is no cure. There are numerous treatments that are supposed to slow down the progression but none really do much. I asked if there are any studies on any of those treatments being combined with each other.
I heard crickets because even though they are all scientists, that thought is foreign to them and besides no one would make money on it.

To me common sense and personal experience is more important than anything else we can learn from.

If someone told me their cats live for 25 years and all he feeds them is sawdust I would think they were nuts. But if I went to his house and saw those 25 year old cats eating sawdust and I had a cat. I would run out and buy sawdust no matter what the scientific community or anyone else said.