Seachem Ammonia Alert Question

[User]

I’d argue that, since a proper nitrification biofilm takes weeks to months to mature- the activity we are seeing here is due to surface localized individual or small colonies of bacteria doing the nitrification. Not a biofilm. Especially on the 3-4 weeks time frames that QTs are typically run for. In fact- whenever I break one of these systems down, I rarely have the ‘slime coating’ that is an active biofilm, other than on the temp probe or the back of the alert badge.

And the fish load is relevant to the levels in the tank, since a significant proportion of the ammonia present is derived from fish waste. If you’re anything like me, and siphon out any food left in the tank 10 minutes after feeding, food input is a small contributor to ammonia load

 

[nbd13]

So it’s been about 5 hours and the indicator is still a little green....

Any suggestions?

 

[User]

It’ll take a while. I’ve had them take 6-8 hours after a 100% WC before they go back to yellow.

 

[Victoria M]

It will go back down to yellow if the ammonia drops.

I actually keep mine in my sump when I am not using it in QT. It takes about 4 hours to go from toxic to yellow.

You place a badge from your QT into your sump? How do you sterilize it? In my experience sterilizing it rendered it useless. The bleach damaged the yellow button. I wipe it down with rubbing alcohol avoiding the yellow button, and then I set it in a cup of clean saltwater while my QT is getting cleaned and reset. It there was disease or a death I discard it.

 

[User]

You place a badge from your QT into your sump? How do you sterilize it? In my experience sterilizing it rendered it useless. The bleach damaged the yellow button.

Yeah, don’t do that.

They can’t really be sterilized and are an infection risk.

I’ve got 6 of those things kicking around, and they each get stored in a small Tupperware of rodi when not in use. Labeled with the type of QT- eg Invert, Copper, chloroquine, antibiotics.

Although, at $6 each, they are practically an ‘individual use’ item. Particularly the invert one- nerites like to chew on mine, and they get kinda ragged

 

[Lasse]

I’d argue that, since a proper nitrification biofilm takes weeks to months to mature- the activity we are seeing here is due to surface localized individual or small colonies of bacteria doing the nitrification. Not a biofilm. Especially on the 3-4 weeks time frames that QTs are typically run for. In fact- whenever I break one of these systems down, I rarely have the ‘slime coating’ that is an active biofilm, other than on the temp probe or the back of the alert badge.

Not complete true – nitrification bacteria and archaea only works as biofilms - they are organisms that need to attach to a substrate. They will form a biofilm directly and they are only slow growers in a bacteria perspective - the biomass double time is about 13 hours in pure media. The first step – NH3/NH4 to NO2 is done by nitrification bacteria (as Nitrosomonas) and different types of archaea´s. It establishes itself rather fast and in oxygen levels down to 3.5 – 4 ppm. In normal cases – they are producing NO2 already after one to two days. The second step NO2-NO3 needs NO2 in order to start and are more sensitive for oxygen depletion – in freshwater – at least 5 ppm is needed. The process can halt in this stage and produce a lot of NO2 that´s not will be further transformed into NO3. Probably reason for this is that the NO2 oxidizers – mainly Nitrobacter and Nitrospira need both P and N in order to form biomass and oxygen depletion. But all of these processes take place in a biofilm and in the beginning (with only nitrification bacteria) it is thin and you can´t see it. What you call biofilm is indeed a biofilm but mostly consists of heterotrophic bacteria with sometimes nitrification organisms in the extreme top layer of the film – however – is the film too thick (read consist of a huge amount of organic matter) – the nitrification rate will be slow and stop mostly before the second stage (increase of NO2 in the water).

And the fish load is relevant to the levels in the tank, since a significant proportion of the ammonia present is derived from fish waste. If you’re anything like me, and siphon out any food left in the tank 10 minutes after feeding, food input is a small contributor to ammonia load

I´m sorry to say - this is not the whole truth either. It is only lesser than 20% of the surplus nitrogen that will be delivered by the solid waste of fish (fish pop). In order to be converted from organic N into NH3/NH4 it needs heterotrophic bacteria too. This is valid for surplus food too. But it is right – avoid surplus food in the long run. In a newly started aquarium – it will take at least a week before this source of NH3/NH4 production has established itself, hence of lesser impotrance the first week(s)..

The main source of NH3/NH4 in the start is from the gills of the fish – more than 80 % of the surplus nitrogen will be excreted this way – and mainly the first 1 to 2 hours after feeding. A fish that use its reserves (not get enough of daily feed) will also excrete surplus nitrogen this way but is normally a low amount. This mean that you with your feeding regime control around 80 % of the NH3/NH4 production in a newly started tank. With surplus nitrogen I mean the amount of nitrogen that the fish will not bound in its biomass. Normally around 20 - 25 % of the nitrogen in the food will be new fish biomass - 75 - 80 % will be excreted mainly through the gills.

Hint - we transport out surplus nitrogen through the pee - saltwater fish normally do not pee

Sincerly Lasse

 

[User]

You don’t consider the ammonia excreted through the gills to be waste? I wasn’t talking exclusively about solid poop- sorry if that wasn’t clear.

Ill defer to your obviously superior knowledge base in terms of nitrifying bacteria etc, and think we may be using different terminology for variations on a theme. My background is in pathogenic medically relevant bacteria and biofilm formation on medical devices, not environmental. Specifically, surgically inserted glucose sensing insulin delivery systems that use inert carbon fiber filter pads colonized by genetically engineered bacteria.

Regards

Neil

 

[User]

@Lasse

Do you have a write up of this somewhere on R2R? It’s interesting information that would make great reading in a more comprehensive format.

Thanks

 

[Lasse]

No - not for the moment but I plan to make an article about this because there is a lot of different views of this. I'm not at microbiologist but have been working with nitrification issues since beginning of the 80:ties in aquarium, recirculated fish farms and experimental waste water treatment. The things I wrote above is not from one source It is more a sumary of what I learned through the years. In 1980 - few or none knows about the importance of the archaeas and nitrospira.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[ngoodermuth]

I’ve ALWAYS used a seeded sponge in my QTs, and it’s advised NOT to use live rock in QT when you plan on using medications, most especially copper. Because the rock can absorb/leach copper in cycles and cause the levels to fluctuate [emoji15]Also, many other medications like antibiotics and CP, can also be made less effective.

The exception, is of course a difficult fish. I will sometimes “sacrifice” a piece or two of live rock to get the fish eating, but it is removed before starting any medications.

QT is actually the most effective without biofilm or significant biological filtration, and since we are not “cycling” these tanks for long term use we should be prepared to watch for, and address quickly, the presence of ammonia. I keep the full tank volume of fresh saltwater mixed at all times while running QT. If I see any indication of ammonia, I’ll do anywhere from 25-50% change.... allow the tank to settle and see where I am, and then possibly repeat if needed.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Some helpful links:
Ammonia Control in a Hospital Tank
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...ntrol-in-a-Hospital-Tank.296119/&share_type=t
QT and Biofilm
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?sh...p?threads/QT-and-Biofilm.292878/&share_type=t

 

[User]

Two very good responses about biofilms that I don’t think people appreciate, giving the different intent of QT vs DT.

Thanks

 

[User]

I’ve ALWAYS used a seeded sponge in my QTs, and it’s advised NOT to use live rock in QT when you plan on using medications, most especially copper. Because the rock can absorb/leach copper in cycles and cause the levels to fluctuate [emoji15]Also, many of other medications like antibiotics and CP, can also be made less effective.

The exception, is of course a difficult fish. I will sometimes “sacrifice” a piece or two of live rock to get the fish eating, but it is removed before starting any medications.

QT is actually the most effective without biofilm or significant biological filtration, and since we are not “cycling” these tanks for long term use we should be prepared to watch for, and address quickly, the presence of ammonia. I keep the full tank volume of fresh saltwater mixed at all times while running QT. If I see any indication of ammonia, I’ll do anywhere from 25-50% change.... allow the tank to settle and see where I am, and then possibly repeat if needed.

Agreed- I keep 3-5x QT volume of SW and rodi on hand at all times during QT in order to do multiple 100% changes if needed. I typically have 2 x 10g in play at once, although right now I have av10g abs a 20l. I have 50g SW and 50 RODI in barrels.

With the precautionary drug treatments I do- metroplex, GC, Prazipro- I’m never really more than 2 days away from a 50% change anyway. If I keep my ‘inmates’ down to 2-3” per 5 gallons, I never see ammonia build up.

Except tangs. Those things are filthy.

 

[Geebs19]

Yeah, don’t do that.

They can’t really be sterilized and are an infection risk.

I’ve got 6 of those things kicking around, and they each get stored in a small Tupperware of rodi when not in use. Labeled with the type of QT- eg Invert, Copper, chloroquine, antibiotics.

Although, at $6 each, they are practically an ‘individual use’ item. Particularly the invert one- nerites like to chew on mine, and they get kinda ragged

Eh, I have done it through 3 Qts now and its not presented an issue. I wipe it down with vinegar avoiding the actual alert portion and then just let it dry out. Never had an issue and it still changes colors. No point in buying a new one when this one is still kicking.

 

[User]

Eh, I have done it through 3 Qts now and its not presented an issue. I wipe it down with vinegar avoiding the actual alert portion and then just let it dry out. Never had an issue and it still changes colors. No point in buying a new one when this one is still kicking.

Yeah- a lot of the time QT is precautionary, and nothing too pathogenic is present. If something does come up (Ich, velvet, brook, Uronema- stuff with a part of the life-cycle outside the fish, or is highly infectious) , I toss it, like @Victoria M suggested.

 

[4FordFamily]

The badges can become ineffective, after 2-3 months I usually replace mine. One thing I always use with QT is biospira. I noticed a long discussion about the types of media for QT filtration so I apologized if I missed where you're using it. When I have added biospira it's brought the badge yellow pretty quickly.

 

[User]

The badges can become ineffective, after 2-3 months I usually replace mine. One thing I always use with QT is biospira. I noticed a long discussion about the types of media for QT filtration so I apologized if I missed where you're using it. When I have added biospira it's brought the badge yellow pretty quickly.

I have added a tiny drop of ammonia to the badge storage solution a day before use to test, and give me time to get a new one if it’s been stored for more than a couple months. It was still good, but had only been through one QT before I stored it.

 

[4FordFamily]

I have added a tiny drop of ammonia to the badge storage solution a day before use to test, and give me time to get a new one if it’s been stored for more than a couple months. It was still good, but had only been through one QT before I stored it.

For me if mine dries out I toss it. I don’t have any idea if that’s necessary, it’s just what I do.

 

[User]

For me if mine dries out I toss it. I don’t have any idea if that’s necessary, it’s just what I do.

Me too. For some reason, I thought I’d read that it shouldn’t dry out, but other people do that and it seems fine.

I rinse mine off with RODI and keep them individually in tiny Tupperware boxes with rodi.

 

[Victoria M]

Me too. For some reason, I thought I’d read that it shouldn’t dry out, but other people do that and it seems fine.

I rinse mine off with RODI and keep them individually in tiny Tupperware boxes with rodi.

This is how the Seachem ammonia tests are stored. Little yellow dots that are stored in a container about the size of a contact case and it has a moist media you set the dots on with a pair of tweezers. I am sure it is the same technology as the badges. With out double checking the ammonia reading how would you know the badges are fine? I experienced a failed badge and heard that it was not unheard of so I now use two or test the badge for accuracy periodically.
I rarely if ever have to do a water change in QT since using Stability. A recent QT using Fritz 900 did not require a water change due to ammonia at all. It was pretty awesome. .