still lost on quarantine protocol

[RobberyinCSharp1824]

Since there's a mixed bag of people who have opinions on QT, I would like to ask this n00b question here - do you have to QT your first set of fish after cycling your tank, provided there is no coral in it? What are the risks of not doing so?

 

[FrancineJ]

Less not scare the kid to death. Let him enjoy the tank some. I am a dealer and I put stuff in my store every week fish get a formalin dip for 45 min and corals just go in the tanks..

I don’t think anyone is trying to scare him but it can be reality... he’s not going to enjoy the tank if he has to let it sit fallow for months.....
People can go 30 years and never qt anything or someone could buy their first fish/coral/invert and have it bring in a disease etc... I think it’s important to qt now after I had a bad experience but before I never bothered and went a long time without issue... until my sons tank went down... it’s just not a fun experience watching everything die over a little frag... it’s good to be aware of everything that can happen and people can choose what to do and if they want to take a risk or not...

 

[FrancineJ]

Since there's a mixed bag of people who have opinions on QT, I would like to ask this n00b question here - do you have to QT your first set of fish after cycling your tank, provided there is no coral in it? What are the risks of not doing so?

I would say yes I would qt them... the risks are that they can also be carriers of diseases like ich or velvet etc..... so if they end up having something then you will likely loose them (if you catch stuff quick enough you can save the fish sometimes) but what happens with these diseases is the life cycle of them makes it so you can’t add anything back to your tank (fish) for 72 days... that’s how long it takes to kill it off.... so you will be looking at a tank of cuc for a couple months.... so imo I would qt my first set as well.... it’s a good idea to start your qt while setting up your tank... and letting it cycle...

One thing that can happen is shops are now starting to treat their fish with sub therapeutic levels of CP or copper...Most do this to prevent massive losses but what can happen then is because the copper or CP dose was not very high the fish will appear healthy and you will bring it home and then a short time after the fish will then show up with velvet or something... it’s like the small dose of CP or copper in the store can mask the disease... if that makes sense.... now not all shops do this but it’s happening more and more because again, it helps them from losing their stock after shipping etc

 

[RobberyinCSharp1824]

I would say yes I would qt them... the risks are that they can also be carriers of diseases like ich or velvet etc..... so if they end up having something then you will likely loose them (if you catch stuff quick enough you can save the fish sometimes) but what happens with these diseases is the life cycle of them makes it so you can’t add anything back to your tank (fish) for 72 days... that’s how long it takes to kill it off.... so you will be looking at a tank of cuc for a couple months.... so imo I would qt my first set as well.... it’s a good idea to start your qt while setting up your tank... and letting it cycle...

YIKES!!! That in and of itself makes it worth it. Thanks! Will absolutely QT!!!

 

[AcanthurusRex]

I have yet to see a study that determines feeding clams cures velvet. Until someone sets up a controlled study with positive repeatable results by independent review this remains an unsubstantiated hypothesis. The clam cure was actually suggested in another thread to treat velvet/ich.
It is obvious that healthy fish will resist disease. I am totally in line with this idea as far as bacterial/viral pathogens are concerned. I am unconvinced by any anecdotal evidence that you can extrapolate this the protozoan pathogens or issues such as flukes in a closed system.
I don't want to QT either. It is hard and takes too much time.
I also give my dogs heartworm meds even though I feed them well. Maybe this is misguided as well.

 

[MnFish1]

I have yet to see a study that determines feeding clams cures velvet. Until someone sets up a controlled study with positive repeatable results by independent review this remains an unsubstantiated hypothesis. The clam cure was actually suggested in another thread to treat velvet/ich.
It is obvious that healthy fish will resist disease. I am totally in line with this idea as far as bacterial/viral pathogens are concerned. I am unconvinced by any anecdotal evidence that you can extrapolate this the protozoan pathogens or issues such as flukes in a closed system.
I don't want to QT either. It is hard and takes too much time.
I also give my dogs heartworm meds even though I feed them well. Maybe this is misguided as well.

In the 'other thread' the point was that poorly fed/stressed fish will have a weakened immune system. There was also talk of adding 'parasites' in the form of live food. to help 'maintain' immunity. The first part is certainly true - poorly fed fish may have problems. I do not believe the second part is true.

Just my opinion - the way 'immune tanks' work - is filtration/flow takes out many/most of the free-swimming infectious particles. If the fish are well fed - they seem to do ok.

I btw - as mentioned - do not personally perform QT - but have also arranged with my LFS to allow the fish to be under observation for x period in copper free water. I've never had a problem. The only time I ever had a problem was when ordering online. Wiped out my whole tank (velvet ) in 3 days. new and old inhabitants.

I do not know of any local fish store that keeps their fish in 'sub-therapeutic copper levels' in this area - except maybe if the Petco does. I certainly haven't surveyed every store, however. If some wholesalers are doing this - (which I've heard) - Ive heard they also use simultaneous hyposallinity - which according to some studies allows the use of a lower copper dose - while maintaining killing of the parasites.

I can't see a rationale for using a subtheraputic copper level - the definition of 'subtheraputic' means it will not work.

 

[MnFish1]

One thing that can happen is shops are now starting to treat their fish with sub therapeutic levels of CP or copper...Most do this to prevent massive losses but what can happen then is because the copper or CP dose was not very high the fish will appear healthy and you will bring it home and then a short time after the fish will then show up with velvet or something... it’s like the small dose of CP or copper in the store can mask the disease... if that makes sense.... now not all shops do this but it’s happening more and more because again, it helps them from losing their stock after shipping etc

Sorry I didn't see this - what are the references for this? ie. is there some kind of trade publication that recommends it - and why would they? Subtheraputic - by definition means that it won't work. Or?

I have read studies where they wholesalers use hypo salinity and lower doses of copper - which is just as effective as high doses of copper - but with less potential copper toxicity. I don't know if this study is 'correct' - bit its out there in the literature - and perhaps this is where this is coming from. Do you know?

 

[MnFish1]

There are exceptions to every rule. I look at this hobby as trying to mimic ocean habitat. In that sense if there wasn't a way to manage disease naturally without boy in the bubble philosophy then every organism in the ocean would be dead already. Paul B has a 48 year old tank that nothing has been quarantined. There has to be something to his idea. I agree that at some point I may run into a disaster. I also know that when it gets to that point I will be trying to figure where I went wrong. Rather than I should have been the over cautious parent that never let their kid outside the house. Like I said in the beginning, there are multiple sides to everything in this hobby. We're all just playing guessing games

The problem is that lets say in the ocean a fish has CI - and it releases its trophonts - they encyst - and 100 or 500 torments (infectious) are released after x days. In the ocean - those are widely dispersed. Data suggest that even in tanks only 5-20% of infectious particles ever find a new host. Now lets say you have 20 fish in a 50 gallon aquarium - one of them or a couple new ones have CI - each particle they release from their skin can within days - produce 10 x the original concentration. Those particles (unless killed by UV/filtered/ozone, etc) are going to cause much more damage than out in the 'open reef'). Of course there is immunity - partial and full to both CI and velvet - and its perhaps true that wild caught fish based on where they come from and the prevalence of CI there - will somewhat protect them. The way the disease is 'managed' in the ocean is 'dilution' of the infectious particles.

But using your logic - there also has to be something to the idea of QT right? Nearly every zoo/aquarium has a strict biosecurity program - I would hope these are not based on guessing games - but rather 'science'.

 

[MnFish1]

Dont confuse what I'm saying with a lack of caring. There is life all around us that thrives without being sheltered from the outside world. If taking the time to truly understand an environment and base our little piece of the Ocean the way @Lasse and @Paul B did why is that wrong? Am I less sincere? How is something with a strong immune system less healthy or happy than a creature with no immune system at all?

Just to summarize for the OP:

1. Get the fish, put them through 14-30 days of copper or chloroquine and a fluke treatment observe them and place in your display.
2. Get the fish - put them through an observation period in a tank or refugium with no medications - and if they develop disease treat them as in # 1. During this observation period - feed them well to get them in as good a condition as you can.
3. Get the fish - put them in your tank - observe for any disease - if they get it - either let the disease take its course and hope the fish are immune, set up a strong UV/ozone system/Filter system. Or take the diseased fish out and treat them - let your display tank go fallow for 76 days.
4. Get the fish - Dump them in your display tank and hope for the best - feed well etc.

I tend to use method 2. Its rare that I need to treat my fish based on where I get my fish.

@Jekyl - I think you're confusing things a little. There is NO WAY - that any method above leaves a fish with 'no immune system at all'. While its true that Copper can weaken the immune system (and is why I dont use it) - contrary to some ideas on 'the other thread' - the immune system is not 'wiped out'. The goal is of course for the fish to have the strongest immune system possible.

BTW - CI in the ocean vs an aquarium is analogous to meningitis (Neisseria meningitides). In normal society it is quite rare in healthy people. IN boarding schools, military bases, camps - it can become a full fledged outbreak in healthy people with strong immune systems.

 

[Jekyl]

That's the fun of this hobby though. There is no perfect answer for anything. All we can hope of each other is that there is always the best of intentions when concerning our new pets. I also am going the no QT route. However the store I am buying from has individually contained systems, no shared water, and runs no medication in their tanks. I'm able to see their health better than at a poorly ran LFS. I do however have a separate tank for observation. I just dont medicate unless absolutely necessary

 

[MnFish1]

That's the fun of this hobby though. There is no perfect answer for anything. All we can hope of each other is that there is always the best of intentions when concerning our new pets. I also am going the no QT route. However the store I am buying from has individually contained systems, no shared water, and runs no medication in their tanks. I'm able to see their health better than at a poorly ran LFS. I do however have a separate tank for observation. I just dont medicate unless absolutely necessary

This is what my store does as well.

 

[Lasse]

There is NO WAY - that any method above leaves a fish with 'no immune system at all'. While its true that Copper can weaken the immune system (and is why I dont use it) - contrary to some ideas on 'the other thread' - the immune system is not 'wiped out'. The goal is of course for the fish to have the strongest immune system possible.

It is a little more complicated than that - the stress of handling, medication, few fishes and so on will supress the defence system - not only the specific system, even the unspecific will be lower. One important thing is that copper also will be bioackumulated in the body of the fish. Every treatment will add mor copper to the body. Where the copper will be stored - I´m not sure - but normally many toxins (fat solouble) will be stored in the fat of the fish. Fat is most fishes primary energy source and it will be stored - used - stored and so on. Stress need energy - it is therefore not a bad guess that the fat metabolism will be higher in cases of cronic stress, hence toxins stored in the fat will be released.

And I think the you have a point when you say that the combination of lower salinity and low copper will give a theraputic level - even ig the copper concentration is low.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

It is a little more complicated than that - the stress of handling, medication, few fishes and so on will supress the defence system - not only the specific system, even the unspecific will be lower. One important thing is that copper also will be bioackumulated in the body of the fish. Every treatment will add mor copper to the body. Where the copper will be stored - I´m not sure - but normally many toxins (fat solouble) will be stored in the fat of the fish. Fat is most fishes primary energy source and it will be stored - used - stored and so on. Stress need energy - it is therefore not a bad guess that the fat metabolism will be higher in cases of cronic stress, hence toxins stored in the fat will be released.

And I think the you have a point when you say that the combination of lower salinity and low copper will give a theraputic level - even ig the copper concentration is low.

Sincerely Lasse

Yes - there are several papers suggesting that copper has an effect (a significant effect) on the mucosal immune system.

 

[fish farmer]

I would say yes I would qt them... the risks are that they can also be carriers of diseases like ich or velvet etc..... so if they end up having something then you will likely loose them (if you catch stuff quick enough you can save the fish sometimes) but what happens with these diseases is the life cycle of them makes it so you can’t add anything back to your tank (fish) for 72 days... that’s how long it takes to kill it off.... so you will be looking at a tank of cuc for a couple months.... so imo I would qt my first set as well.... it’s a good idea to start your qt while setting up your tank... and letting it cycle...

One thing that can happen is shops are now starting to treat their fish with sub therapeutic levels of CP or copper...Most do this to prevent massive losses but what can happen then is because the copper or CP dose was not very high the fish will appear healthy and you will bring it home and then a short time after the fish will then show up with velvet or something... it’s like the small dose of CP or copper in the store can mask the disease... if that makes sense.... now not all shops do this but it’s happening more and more because again, it helps them from losing their stock after shipping etc

Doesn't the CUC need to be QT'd as well? They are shipped in water, they could be harboring nasty things as well. Shouldn't they be observed for a period of time out of the DT?

 

[Lasse]

mucosal immune system.

With other words - the first defence system against attaching parasites.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

With other words - the first defence system against attaching parasites.

Sincerely Lasse

Yes....

 

[MnFish1]

Doesn't the CUC need to be QT'd as well? They are shipped in water, they could be harboring nasty things as well. Shouldn't they be observed for a period of time out of the DT?

If the CUC is kept with fish - theoretically it should be Qt'd for 76 days... My guess is that most are not kept with fish.... But IDK

 

[magic23]

I went with no quarantine route too, recently added a few new fish. Something came with velvet and almost wiped out my fish. I lost achilles tang, long nose black tang, a yellow tang, gold rim tang, flame wrasse and all my small fish. Now I will have to pull all the fish that are left, treat them with copper, leave the tank fishless for almost 3 months. Good luck to me! I was lucky for many years until now. Not to mention I have to find a big enough tank to treat 11" blue tang. SO yes qt seems like a lot of work, but what I have to do now is much worse.

 

[Lasse]

There is an inbuild risk in anything we do – what needs to is to value that risk we take. I and some other dislike QT with prophylactic treatment just in case of.....

If fish are taken from sources, you do not know anything about – it could be wise to do an observation QT for some weeks before you introduce the fish into your DT. If it does not show up any signs – you can be sure that it not bring anything into your tank – but you can´t be sure that there is not anything in your tank that can be dangerous for this new fish. Therefore – it is very wise to during the QT period slowly change the QT water to the same as you have in your DT. I think it is also important to have your QT going more or less as a normal aquarium but without gravel. Personally – I would never put up a QT from scratch when I got my new fish. Personally – I always get my fish from places there I know that the fish is healthy and only use my refugium as QT during a week or two.

I do not QT invertebrates and corals – IMO – the risk for them carrying fish diseases are very low – especially because I take them from the same sources where I get my fish from. IMO – just visit an unknown LFS is riskier – carrying home parasites and pathogens by my clothes or shoes.

IMO – the best thing to do in order to get an environment where obligate pathogens can´t survive is to create as a diverse biological (and microbial) system as possible. There should be very few places there a potential pathogen should survive.

For me – it is rather easy to see that it is very often problems in systems that not have been able to develop a large and diverse microbial fauna – the systems are too clean with other words.

It could also bee very good to have access to some equipment’s that can reduce active parasites as proper UV-C, ozone or oxydators if you plan to have sensitive species.

It is true that you can´t create an ocean in your living room but you can come rather close to it if you work in an ecological way but the trend the last 5 to 10 years seems to be the opposite – our tanks looks more and more like sterile laboratories compared with a slice of nature.

Let us see how it looks like for a wild caught fish. It will be taken up by fishermen, collecting at collecting place – transported to the export facilities – recover there for a while and after that around 48 h transport to the import facilities. Un packed – new environment – a couple of days recover and further transport to LFS, online sellers or online buyers. During this time, it can have happens that the fish have been treated for something. At last – you get the fish. This fish maybe has travelled for a month – seen a dozen of places and qualities of water – and the first you do is to treat it with chemicals – just in case of…… What the fish needs now is a calm recovery in stress free environment. Nothing else. It happens that I take fish direct from the import and let the calm down in my refugium, but it also happens that I let sensitive fish recover in my friend’s facility for some weeks before I get it home. Some fish (and it is not the ones that you think is sensitive for transports) is very sensitive to handle in long transports and need a long recovery time. There is fish that I need to see at some LFS for a month before I buy them if I can´t take the direct and only do one acclimation.

One interesting thing is that in Sweden – we have no access to all of these wonder medicines that you have – they are forbidden or not popular. It’s the same for our LFs and importers too. The logical would be that we have a much higher mortality rate of our fishes compared with you back in the US. Of some crazy reason – it looks like it is the opposite


Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

There is an inbuild risk in anything we do – what needs to is to value that risk we take. I and some other dislike QT with prophylactic treatment just in case of.....

If fish are taken from sources, you do not know anything about – it could be wise to do an observation QT for some weeks before you introduce the fish into your DT. If it does not show up any signs – you can be sure that it not bring anything into your tank – but you can´t be sure that there is not anything in your tank that can be dangerous for this new fish. Therefore – it is very wise to during the QT period slowly change the QT water to the same as you have in your DT. I think it is also important to have your QT going more or less as a normal aquarium but without gravel. Personally – I would never put up a QT from scratch when I got my new fish. Personally – I always get my fish from places there I know that the fish is healthy and only use my refugium as QT during a week or two.

I do not QT invertebrates and corals – IMO – the risk for them carrying fish diseases are very low – especially because I take them from the same sources where I get my fish from. IMO – just visit an unknown LFS is riskier – carrying home parasites and pathogens by my clothes or shoes.

IMO – the best thing to do in order to get an environment where obligate pathogens can´t survive is to create as a diverse biological (and microbial) system as possible. There should be very few places there a potential pathogen should survive.

For me – it is rather easy to see that it is very often problems in systems that not have been able to develop a large and diverse microbial fauna – the systems are too clean with other words.

It could also bee very good to have access to some equipment’s that can reduce active parasites as proper UV-C, ozone or oxydators if you plan to have sensitive species.

It is true that you can´t create an ocean in your living room but you can come rather close to it if you work in an ecological way but the trend the last 5 to 10 years seems to be the opposite – our tanks looks more and more like sterile laboratories compared with a slice of nature.

Let us see how it looks like for a wild caught fish. It will be taken up by fishermen, collecting at collecting place – transported to the export facilities – recover there for a while and after that around 48 h transport to the import facilities. Un packed – new environment – a couple of days recover and further transport to LFS, online sellers or online buyers. During this time, it can have happens that the fish have been treated for something. At last – you get the fish. This fish maybe has travelled for a month – seen a dozen of places and qualities of water – and the first you do is to treat it with chemicals – just in case of…… What the fish needs now is a calm recovery in stress free environment. Nothing else. It happens that I take fish direct from the import and let the calm down in my refugium, but it also happens that I let sensitive fish recover in my friend’s facility for some weeks before I get it home. Some fish (and it is not the ones that you think is sensitive for transports) is very sensitive to handle in long transports and need a long recovery time. There is fish that I need to see at some LFS for a month before I buy them if I can´t take the direct and only do one acclimation.

One interesting thing is that in Sweden – we have no access to all of these wonder medicines that you have – they are forbidden or not popular. It’s the same for our LFs and importers too. The logical would be that we have a much higher mortality rate of our fishes compared with you back in the US. Of some crazy reason – it looks like it is the opposite


Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse I agree with this - But I do have a question - if the 'new fish' you are bringing in something to which the fish in your tank aren't immune - couldn't this cause a problem potentially? I.e. why not set up a separate tank with water from your tank - and use that?