Strontium

[Kungpaoshizi]

Interesting, I just came across this, can't believe I never found this before. And it was even conducted in 1980, how about that. So this and Julian so far, if we're sticking to observations based on strontium specifically and corals. Though without more data from Julian we can't entirely call his comments research, though I can't disqualify it because I've not seen his words on it, only yours.

Effect of Increased Strontium Concentrations
Swart (1980) manipulated (raised) strontium concentrations and observed coral growth rates. Results were mixed. When the strontium level was doubled (presumed to be ~25 mg/l), coral growth increased in only ~38% of the cases. However, when strontium was raised to ten times that of natural seawater (~130 mg/l?), growth rates increased in 63% of the trials. Test kits are available for checking strontium concentrations. See Figure X.


http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2015/10/corals

Can the same be said about raising calcium to 10x natural levels? (if corals truly "mistake" strontium for calcium, then there should be similar results no?)

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Just found this as well, though it's still not concrete as there's some assumptions in place.
Post 9
(apologies for the link to another forum)
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52351

All in all though, I think there's more to be studied. I believe one main point though is the verbage, of "COULD significantly inhibit and alter all calcium requiring processes, such as muscle contraction, tissue differentiations, growth, and injury repair) by reducing the calcium uptake from the surrounding waters." Also the remark of 'inhibiting calcification' doesn't make sense to me if increased growth rates were seen. So are we talking about skeletal growth that is NOT calcification?

And given an alternate pathway, it does produce more questions, not answers.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Aaaaaand scratch that previous post? They say 2 pathways, but this one points towards a common pathway?(and this was published 2003 vs the post previously was made in 2001) Perhaps a lot of all of this is more species specific...

https://www.researchgate.net/public...the_scleractinian_coral_Stylophora_pistillata

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Heh..

However, Sr2+ and Ca2+ deposition in G. fascicularis does not appear to involve similar biochemical mechanisms.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=A8D7351290BB77630252D0D2F20F7083.f04t03

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Gotta jet for a bit, I guess there's a bit to think about.

The more I read the more it seems we really don't know what's going on, so we can't say if it's beneficial or not.. (add that to the list of unknowns about corals right.. heh)

I guess the major thing to me is, if we take something from a certain environment, why would we not try to replicate the environment? Especially when we know so little in the first place. But I guess that's why we're here right and not only hanging out in the Lounge!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I guess the major thing to me is, if we take something from a certain environment, why would we not try to replicate the environment? Especially when we know so little in the first place. But I guess that's why we're here right and not only hanging out in the Lounge!

That is a fine sentiment and worthy goal.

But the practical evidence by reefers and the scientific literature do not provide any convincing evidence that strontium is beneficial or useful.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can the same be said about raising calcium to 10x natural levels? (if corals truly "mistake" strontium for calcium, then there should be similar results no?)

The link you posted answers your own question with data from the same person:

Effects of Increased Calcium Concentrations
Swart (1980) investigated the effects of increased concentrations of various metals on coral calcification. He increased calcium concentrations by 100 and 200 mg/l (presumably to 500 and 600 mg/l.) Corals tested includedAcropora squamosa, Pocillopora damicornis, Acropora cuneta collected from inner flat and outer reef flats. APorites lutea was collected from a reef slope. Growth increased over controls in 57% of these experiments. When calcium was elevated by 400 mg/l (presumably to 800 mg/l) growth decreased in every case save one (and in this case growth was about 1% over the control.) See Figure 9 for results of those experiments involving calcium

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Yup, saw that after that post..

I guess until more exploring of the reasoning behind the inclusion of strontium into the coral not much can be said.. Though strontium is denser than calcium, would this in turn make the skeletal structure a stronger material? (compressive strength vs sheer iirc?)

 

[dwref]

Just wanted to say "Thanks to all that replied to my thread" I have learned a lot & continue to learn a lot Thanks to all you very nice people out there that make this "Addiction" more of a "Hobby" LOL

Thanks

 

[Ontheway]

Interesting subject, just before I decide to buy a bottle of strontium, due to advises from friends, 'Montis are thicker and stronger with Sr dosing'.

Whats on the fish&invert side? Can they survive with extra Sr in water? Any adverse effects?

 

[biom]

Some of my Acros at Strontium level almost zero (0.2mg/l) according Triton Labs for many months (at least 8). Will bring it up to natural levels next weeks, but I don't expect there will be significant change since Acros are doing just fine

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Interesting subject, just before I decide to buy a bottle of strontium, due to advises from friends, 'Montis are thicker and stronger with Sr dosing'.

Whats on the fish&invert side? Can they survive with extra Sr in water? Any adverse effects?

Why raise it above NSW? Within a factor of 2 of NSW, I don't think there is any evidence of issus in reef tanks.

 

[cloak]

I apologize for not reading through the entire thread, but Strontium is just one of those things I pay no mind to. Paying attention to it, dosing, testing etc might cause more harm than good with me. Ignorance is bliss sometimes.

 

[Ontheway]

I know something happens when Mg meets with surface-bound Ca. Do you think same happens with Sr -Mg meeting ? Since its formerly stated that Sr is a photocopy of Ca...

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I would speculate it doesn't have much of an effect on health of a coral, but structural integrity of the skeletal structure.
For some reason it makes me think about concrete, and the admixtures that can be added to manipulate the final product. Or a 'composite' substance if you will.

Anyone know if anyone has ever done a 'strength of coral' experiment and broken identical coral, grown in different elemental saturations, with recorded impact/force readings?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would speculate it doesn't have much of an effect on health of a coral, but structural integrity of the skeletal structure.
For some reason it makes me think about concrete, and the admixtures that can be added to manipulate the final product. Or a 'composite' substance if you will.

Anyone know if anyone has ever done a 'strength of coral' experiment and broken identical coral, grown in different elemental saturations, with recorded impact/force readings?

Sounds to me more like putting defects into the crystal would not make it stronger, but I've not seen any data.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

Sounds to me more like putting defects into the crystal would not make it stronger, but I've not seen any data.

Since it doesn't go anywhere (at least strontium for example, according to the proxy recordings for SST and the little I've read on that) I think it would be comparable to stronger elements added to base mixtures. It's like a canoe built from fiberglass, Kevlar, or carbon fiber.
One of those is denser than the others (str, mag, zinc, etc-from skeletal analysis) but each has it's own champion category according to different properties of physics. If you talked about building a full Kevlar canoe, you would be laughed at, same with carbon fiber. But fiberglass has the 'general tolerance' in each area of stress resistance and ultimate strength after you combine and average the various properties.. Buuuut if you combine the 3 of them, the resulting composite material is the winner because it has the strengths of each, and each properties failures are reinforced by the other 2.
But even fiberglass in itself is not a uniform material, it houses multiple compounds.

I guess the point is, a uniform materials properties is only as strong as it's base material. So isn't it entirely possible that the other compounds reinforce the coral?

Incorporating calcite vs aragonite could be species based, but I would bet unless it's for an 'old section of the coral that's not going anywhere' most new growths are probably aragonite-based because the coral may have to re-engage that portion, and at the cellular level, it's probably less energy for the coral to dissolve and reform, aragonite vs calcite.

I know people look at a coral and think 'it's a lot of calcium!', but is it possible the other minerals are 'what it is', and the calcium is just the plaster of paris? When looking at the crystalline structure of aragonite vs calcite vs vaterite... It may very well be a similar scenario to this sentence as each of these are polymorphic.

In those circumstances, some impurities (metal ions or organic matter) may stabilize the vaterite and prevent its transformation into calcite or aragonite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaterite

But of course after it hardens, a calcite-composite will be the strongest of the 3 right?
Found this too, pretty interesting..
https://www.researchgate.net/public...h_bands_in_Porites_coral_from_South_China_Sea

All in all, the different forms of calcium carbonate look to me like different building blocks that are available to use for structure. But of course the precursors are required.

I thought about testing this theory earlier, but instead of growing corals to break once, couldn't I use a comparable mixture to make a "concrete" material, and then perform mechanical stress tests?

Or can you calculate the atomic bond between the various compounds? (like vs like, like vs different, multi-faceted, etc)
Apologies I went the physics direction not chemistry..

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have never seen any data on the strength of calcium carbonate of different crystal types with various levels of impurities, and don't think I can usefully speculate on it. I really don't think one can rationalize a useful prediction without any data.

 

[Kungpaoshizi]

I have never seen any data on the strength of calcium carbonate of different crystal types with various levels of impurities, and don't think I can usefully speculate on it. I really don't think one can rationalize a useful prediction without any data.

I'll have to see if I can find more later.. I think some of it's relevant?

I think it's like this..
A conversation between a coral and myself one day..
Me: Hey coral!
Coral: Hey you!
Me: Why did you just consume that zinc?
Coral: Let me zinc about that for a bit!!

Abstract
Systematic studies on the Mg distributions, the crystal orientations, the formation mechanisms and the mechanical properties of biogenic high-Mg calcites in different marine organisms were summarized in detail in this review. The high-Mg calcites in the hard tissues of marine organisms mentioned generally own a few common features as follows. Firstly, the Mg distribution is not uniform in most of the minerals. Secondly, high-Mg calcite biominerals are usually composed of nanoparticles that own almost the same crystallographic orientations and thus they behave like single crystals or mesocrystals. Thirdly, the formation of thermodynamically unstable high-Mg calcites in marine organisms under mild conditions is affected by three key factors, that is, the formation of amorphous calcium (magnesium) carbonate precursor, the control of polymorph via biomolecules and the high Mg/Ca ratios in modern sea. Lastly, the existence of Mg ions in the Mg-containing calcite may improve the mechanical properties of biogenic minerals. Furthermore, the key progress in the synthesis of high-Mg calcites in the laboratory based on the formation mechanisms of the biogenic high-Mg calcites was reviewed. Many researchers have realized the synthesis of high-Mg calcites in the laboratory under ambient conditions with the help of intermediate amorphous phase, mixed solvents, organic/inorganic surfaces and soluble additives. Studies on the structural analysis and formation mechanisms of thermodynamically unstable biogenic high-Mg calcite minerals may shed light on the preparation of functional materials with enhanced mechanical properties.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1047847713003031

The development of chemical routes leading to controlled crystallization is an important requirement in the synthesis of crystalline materials for various applications. New synthetic approaches are often inspired by biology, which shows countless examples of biogenic crystals with finely tuned sizes, shapes, crystallographic orientation, polymorphs, etc.1 In particular, the importance of calcium carbonates in nature has led to extensive studies of CaCO3 crystallization using two main bioinspired methods: (i) templating by structured organic surfaces,2-4 such as self-assembled monolayers (SAMs), Langmuir monolayers, biomacromolecules, and functionalized polymers; and (ii) solution precipitation with growth modifiers,5-8 such as ions, proteins, and synthetic polymers.
.....
....

In summary, we have demonstrated the highly controlled synthesis of calcite with uniform nucleating plane, size, and morphology, by combining the MUA-SAM-induced oriented nucleation with the addition of Mg2+ ions to the growth solution. The ability to form a statistically significant number of homogeneous crystals makes this approach suitable for detailed studies of the mechanisms of the oriented nucleation and of the incorporation of the impurities into the crystals. We suggest, therefore, that the use of the templating by chemically modified surfaces together with specialized growth modifiers in the crystallizing solution is a promising chemical route to yield high-level control of multiple parameters of crystallization in one experiment, including crystal orientation, size, shape, polymorph, and stability.

http://aizenberglab.seas.harvard.edu/files/2003_JACS_0.pdf

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make that relates to strontium. Or you you now on another topic?