The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[HomebroodExotics]

This is literally what I did after my aquariums were completely killed. No water changes. Just carbon dosing and patience and within a few months it’s as good as new.

40G Breeder Revival From Hurricane Ida - Doing everything wrong

So This is how I left my 40 gallon breeder the night we left before the storm. It was about 4 months old. I wanted a final video and picture because I knew it was unlikely I would be coming back to this. Unfortunately I was right. I use the zeovit dosing system with a BCB basket and a box...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[sixty_reefer]

@sixty_reefer How long has the tank in your video been running? It sure is cleaner than any of mine. I'm battling nuisance algae in my reefer 170 right now. Tank has been up for over 3 years but about 10 months ago I redid the rock scape and I think I reset things. The tank does suffer from low nutrients. I was dosing N and P to keep them detectable but since I pulled my chaeto I have only had to dose P. I run no skimmer. I'm finishing up treatment with Flux rx now but not sure if it's going to work or not. I think I'm on day 10. I normally am hesitant to add chems but am getting tired of having to scrub the algae off if all my sps frags. My 180 might benifit from this as it has hair algae and cyano and has not had any chems added. It also has a nasty vermitid snail outbreak to the point they are affecting corals but I don't know if they feed off of the same nutrients as algae? I'm not much of a science guy.

The tank is 9 months or more, it is a experimental tank, I started by using carbohydrates from phytoplankton to manage my nutrients and I eventually stumbled on reef actif. It does the same job just more easily controlled imo.

there is many reasons on why you may be struggling with low nutrient and the nuisance algar may be one of them, nuisance algae will alway prefer ammonia over nitrates due to ammonia being fairly more easily assimilate, in a way the algae is competing with nitrifying bacteria over it and by effect reduce the amount of ammonia available for the nitrogen cycle to complete. (Reducing nitrates)
Don’t be concerned in dosing nitrates and phosphates in the presence of algae they are fairly important for the cure and affect little on the nuisance algae. Nitrates and phosphates detectable are important to keep coral and beneficial heterotrophic bacteria workin effectively.

with using flux there is a few things to take in consideration, one is that once the algae gets oxidised and starts to die you may encounter several nutrient issues, let’s say for example that the algae was using 50% of the overall ammonia produced by the system, by killing all the algae all the sudden you now have opened the doors to Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates that are organisms that are effective at using ammonia also if this 50% of ammonia is just redirected to them you will be getting rid of one issue and creating another, you may want to consider to dose nitrifying bacteria to use all the ammonia and reduce organic compounds (source of ammonia) trapped in the sand bed and rock scape with carbohydrates, another thing to take in consideration is that as algae melts they will release natural carbohydrates that will also lower this organics and as a side effect lower nitrates and phosphates, you will need to monitor no3 and po4 and dose them if needed to counter react the nutrient effects of the hole situation.

with vermit snails is different they are filter feeders and they may find the extra bacteria a treat, look into add bumblebee snails to control the vermit population.

 

[sixty_reefer]

would you consider stoppping the reef flux and beginning this method, fluconazole has lots of study on it already. we expect it to kill the algae, then cause cyano/fluconazole shows that in its 600 page work thread


there's no telling how fluconazole impacts bacteria, it would be nice to get that stopped ahead of time before starting this option.

I don’t find no problem in using algaecides as long as folks are aware of the nutrient impact that they may cause, it would be better to reduce the source of ammonia before doing the treatment imo

 

[sixty_reefer]

Are you suggesting only using reef actif to fight against gha? That all? Nothing else?

In a way, reef actif will reduce the organic nutrients in a system that cause ammonia to rise. So in a way you only reducing the nutrient that allows algae to thrive if used before the problem it will help avoid nuisance algae to thrive, if used after the problem it will stop the source of energy allowing the cuc to eliminate the algae, in my system I have to dose silica to promote the growth of diatoms to feed my cuc they would starve otherwise.

we often only look at nitrates and phosphates wile fighting algae and totally ignore ammonia as we can’t see it. The reason we can’t see it is due to all photosynthetic organisms needing it for energy along with nitrifying bacteria the larger the bloom gets the more ammonia it will use and less available will be for the nitrogen cycle damaging the beneficial bacteria dominance in a system. Nitrates and phosphates have little impact on algae and coral growth rates.
This is just a way to reduce ammonia during a outbreak and a preventative method it is not a miracle cure although in the long run it will starve the algae by competing in a natural way

 

[sixty_reefer]

I guess I'm on the slow side since I am game to try stuff since my tank has been a problem child but I'm not sure what the OP is recommending, is this just carbon dosing or what exactly is the recommendation and process?

Appears to be a version of carbon dosing, I have to dose N and P in order to keep them up, adding carbon will only aggravate that IMHO, but would like to understand more what is being recommended..

Yes in a way is carbon dosing although the form of the carbon plays a big role, carbohydrate stimulate the growth of different bacteria that ethanol or acetic acid would stimulate.
Ethanol and acetic acid estimulantes bacteri that oxidises no3 and some po4 due to the growth and division.
Carbohydrates as shown in the paper stimulated the growth of decomposing bacteria, this bacteria is the one responsible for eating organic nutrients before the become dissolved nutrients the biggest difference being that they will reduce nutrients and reduce pollution the same way that me and you do. We eat the organic matter before it starts to rot and cause the appearance of unwanted organisms that thrive on rotten organics, this is how I keep my water clean and don’t need GAG food and organic waste don’t stay around in the system for long this reduces the yellowing of the water that many refers struggle with and a sign that the food is staying in the water column for too long. Folks that have algae problem will often see that the water is yellow this to me is a indication that the beneficial bacteria responsible for decomposing organic matter is limited in carbon.
I wouldn’t advice this to anyone that has concerns in additing nutrients via chemical as often this may reduce nitrates and phosphates carbohydrates take longer to dissolve although they will eventually do so and affect nitrates and phosphates also by reducing ammonia you are directly affecting the nitrogen cycle and will have reduced nitrates and phosphates although in my system I don’t see the depletion of them as effective as vodka or vinegar.

 

[brandon429]

Our hobby is absolutely impacted by misreading test kits, how can a set of 20 readers_/ applicants ensure they're reacting to correct nitrate and phosphate levels

I sure hate to base systemic changes on: how much green is in this vial


What that did to cycling is a crime.

 

[Dburr1014]

Okay,
So in a system that has slight gha here and there from aftermath of a Dino battle, cyano in the sump that's been pretty much there since tank conception, what would be the plan?
I dose calcium nitrate because it's always low, po4 is mostly steady, dosing only occasionally when cheato ball is getting big.
Is this a daily addition after lights out?
X mls to start and after a few months lowering the dose for maintenance?

What's the dose? What's the maintenance dose?
What are the signs it's working or not working?

 

[brandon429]

I also want to know how ammonia gets pinned as a causative without having to show extra ammonia present on a clear reading digital kit, compared to a no hair algae tank reading for nh3

Results matter, so as long as some algae tanks are fixed I'm happy regardless of the mode

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Okay,
So in a system that has slight gha here and there from aftermath of a Dino battle, cyano in the sump that's been pretty much there since tank conception, what would be the plan?
I dose calcium nitrate because it's always low, po4 is mostly steady, dosing only occasionally when cheato ball is getting big.
Is this a daily addition after lights out?
X mls to start and after a few months lowering the dose for maintenance?

What's the dose? What's the maintenance dose?
What are the signs it's working or not working?

Why are you growing chaeto and dosing nitrates?

 

[Dburr1014]

I would 100% try this method.
Why?
It doesn't sound invasive at all like other chemicals.
It's a natural approach.
I assume this can go on a doser.

I just need a plan.

I've been working on the gha for probably about a year or close to it.

My tank has an apex but besides that, it's pretty much bare bones.
Stopped using gac.
Stopped using socks. (once in a while I throw one in)
Do use a skimmer.
After dinos, took off the UV.

I have maybe a dozen spots of algae. Some places I can't reach so I try and tweeze them out. It's time consuming and quite frankly, getting tired of it. In some spots, it is effecting my coral. I have started to peroxide some spots but I haven't really seen much change.
I'm ready to try a new approach.

 

[brandon429]

agreed

I put this link in some invasion posts not because I want to flippantly risk other people's systems, it's that I trust modulating nitrate and phosphate and or that doser above for twenty bucks is not a tank killing combo. it either fixes the issue in pattern or it doesnt

similarly, SunnyX did not harm anyone's tank in his work thread of 13 pages. I rate his success rate at 30%, we need to improve upon that rate.

in the massive dinos thread, they're mainly doing N and P guesstimation adjustment and they too fix about 30% or less of respondents, in my opinion from scanning the thread multiple years.

this method is not dangerous. I can't link it to bleaching or coral loss, unlike chemiclean. anyone can link that to tank losses and coral bleaching with a quick search.


peroxide too; I think Sixty's method is safer than the myriad tanks we zapped with peroxide right into the water.

I'm relaying this to friends in hopes it makes them not need the deep dive eight hour rip clean surgery.

 

[MPCReefer]

This is literally what I did after my aquariums were completely killed. No water changes. Just carbon dosing and patience and within a few months it’s as good as new.

40G Breeder Revival From Hurricane Ida - Doing everything wrong

So This is how I left my 40 gallon breeder the night we left before the storm. It was about 4 months old. I wanted a final video and picture because I knew it was unlikely I would be coming back to this. Unfortunately I was right. I use the zeovit dosing system with a BCB basket and a box...

www.reef2reef.com

Nice thread. Nice tank.

 

[HomebroodExotics]

Nice thread. Nice tank.

Thank you I appreciate it.

 

[exnisstech]

Don’t be concerned in dosing nitrates and phosphates in the presence of algae they are fairly important for the cure and affect little on the nuisance algae. Nitrates and phosphates detectable are important to keep coral and beneficial heterotrophic bacteria workin effectively.

Agreed. I refuse to accept a reading of zero as being ok. Many people say that the algae is taking up all the nutrients faster than you can measure thats why you get false zero result. I think if this is true then there is zero in the water column so no food for the corals so I dose N and P as needed to keep levels detectable even though there is algae present.

with using flux there is a few things to take in consideration, one is that once the algae gets oxidised and starts to die you may encounter several nutrient issues, let’s say for example that the algae was using 50% of the overall ammonia produced by the system, by killing all the algae all the sudden you now have opened the doors to Cyanobacteria and dinoflagellates that are organisms that are effective at using ammonia also if this 50% of ammonia is just redirected to them you will be getting rid of one issue and creating another, you may want to consider to dose nitrifying bacteria to use all the ammonia and reduce organic compounds (source of ammonia) trapped in the sand bed and rock scape with carbohydrates, another thing to take in consideration is that as algae melts they will release natural carbohydrates that will also lower this organics and as a side effect lower nitrates and phosphates, you will need to monitor no3 and po4 and dose them if needed to counter react the nutrient effects of the hole situation.

Nine days in with flux and cyano patches are already appearing. Is there a particular product or process you would recommend, reef actif? At this point I have gha, cyano, and what I'm pretty sure is bryopsis. Its not what I call overrun but a nuisance just the same. I just did a little reading on Dr Tim's program using Re Fresh and Waste Away but am hesitant as I always am about adding anything. I used to think just waiting things out and letting a tank mature on its own is best but I'm not so sure any longer. I fixed cars for 38 years so my science and chemistry skills are non existent beyond what I gather here and online.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Okay,
So in a system that has slight gha here and there from aftermath of a Dino battle, cyano in the sump that's been pretty much there since tank conception, what would be the plan?
I dose calcium nitrate because it's always low, po4 is mostly steady, dosing only occasionally when cheato ball is getting big.
Is this a daily addition after lights out?
X mls to start and after a few months lowering the dose for maintenance?

What's the dose? What's the maintenance dose?
What are the signs it's working or not working?

Dosing has to be done manually, reef actif is in powder form and will have to be mixed with tank water and agitated to mix. It can’t be done via dosing unit unfortunately. I prefer to dose it at lights out although you could dose it at any time really the advantage of dosing at light out is to reduce it from being used by photosynthetic organisms.
the amount varies with volume the introduction says a full scoop per 132 gallons tree times a week, I just divide my full amount and do it daily.

the first sign that it’s working would be glass maintenance you should observe less green algae forming on the glass hence less glass maintenance, in time you should observe the Cyanobacteria receding naturally and starting to melt, with the GHA you will see it turning brown.

 

[brandon429]

I have always had a problem with the claim that algae in stasis in a display reef keeps N and P parameters zero so that test kits can't measure it

(that's accepting someone is using an accurate nitrate and po4 kit, doubtful based on test kit comparison threads but we can assume here all measurements are correct)


@Turbo's Aquatics

I'm very interested in your take on scrubber dynamics and plant update in general in reef tanks. Why is it that one round of algae on the rocks of an invasion tank, the first growth that hasn't been exported it's just sitting there for months, gets assumed to command all future nutrients such that test kits can't read it

that's stating algae is a perpetual scrub just by existing, not that it must assimilate into new mass rather quickly to prove uptake.

invaded tank owners have been told this for decades...they get to have the benefits of ATS, having never removed any algae or made new room for growth? convenient it seems

algae turf scrubbers put on biomass, take up space quickly with plants and must be exported routinely to make new room for active growth - none sit idle, that seems like active uptake of nutrients

if you refuse to ever clean an ATS, do they still work perpetually or does uptake eventually stop/slow

can one hair algae rock in a 65g display reef perpetually scrub the N and P out of solution even if its non changing for weeks on end, just sitting there>?


*why this matters/relevancy

we are taking some assumptions in attribution so far between nitrate, phosphate and ammonia / ability to measure those accurately and tank invasions that I'd like to account for once results begin to post.

 

[exnisstech]

the first sign that it’s working would be glass maintenance you should observe less green algae forming on the glass hence less glass maintenance, in time you should observe the Cyanobacteria receding naturally and starting to melt, with the GHA you will see it turning brown.

I'm going to see if I can find any local, if not I'll order some. and give this method a try. Heck if it helps with the glass it will be worth it. I have to clean my glass daily and I'm not even close to being a perfectionist.

 

[brandon429]

if it works for you guys I will try some on my old pico reef. the first sign that I need to cut back on feeding is advanced glass cleaning, I would like to cut that down and still be able to keep my feed rate up without inside glass wiping once it starts to age out again.

it also appears nobody should rush this method, if it takes 2-3 mos to turn a challenge tank around that's no issue, often times they've been challenged a year or longer before posting for assistance

that's quite fast repair in the big picture for such little effort.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I also want to know how ammonia gets pinned as a causative without having to show extra ammonia present on a clear reading digital kit, compared to a no hair algae tank reading for nh3

Results matter, so as long as some algae tanks are fixed I'm happy regardless of the mode

Ammonia doesn’t show due to being used, we getting ammonia going trough the nitrogen cycle and appearing in our systems as no3 without being able to see it in the previous forms with our equipment. Ammonia is always present at very low levels that only spectrometer can detect. Those levels of ammonia will be used by all photosynthetic organisms and nitrifying bacteria.

many of us have seen that every time one battle is finished another starts this is due to not solving the root cause of the issue, normal tank cleans are effective due to remove a lot of organics compounds from a system that would release ammonia if left in the system. Although this is a good method for an instant result is not viable long therm if the aquarists don’t know how they got to that point in the first place. Performing a rip clean and then start dosing reef actif is also a solution as this would avoid folks to build up organics again after the tank clean. There is so many methods that can be use as long as we know what’s causing the issue many solutions can be made.

 

[MPCReefer]

I have been dealing with a GHA outbreak for a couple months. Tank just hit two year mark and I have not had any GHA until this current outbreak. I did battle dinos (LCA) for about 6 months around the 1 year mark. I have a pretty heavy fish load (9 total: 2 wrasses, Fox Face, Tomini, RG, Bellus Angel, 2 Springer Damsels, Flame Hawk) in a 110 gallon system. Running an ATS which has really kicked in and that in combination (maybe?) has driven N03 down to 2-3 and P04 runs around .1. Nitrates before the ATS really kicked in were running in the 20's. I also dosed triple dose of bio digest bacteria three weeks ago that contributed to N03 decrease.

GHA I have been pulling out as I can, but it keeps growing, although I blacked out one side of my tank closest to a window a week ago and GHA growth seems to be slowing somewhat and it seems to be thinning out. Mainly concentrated in the right side of tank but a few spots throughout. Cleanup crew consists of a rock boring urchin hitchhiker, several turbos and astrea snails, and several hermit crabs.

Currently contemplating dosing N03 to bring it back up as I believe SPS corals (the few I have) are suffering a bit at lower levels. Soft corals doing great, though. Do not want to go the chemical route.

Wondering if dosing N03 up to 10 or so and employing this method might help. But, like others would need a plan.