The Bacterial “Rip Clean” Method

[sixty_reefer]

I would 100% try this method.
Why?
It doesn't sound invasive at all like other chemicals.
It's a natural approach.
I assume this can go on a doser.

I just need a plan.

I've been working on the gha for probably about a year or close to it.

My tank has an apex but besides that, it's pretty much bare bones.
Stopped using gac.
Stopped using socks. (once in a while I throw one in)
Do use a skimmer.
After dinos, took off the UV.

I have maybe a dozen spots of algae. Some places I can't reach so I try and tweeze them out. It's time consuming and quite frankly, getting tired of it. In some spots, it is effecting my coral. I have started to peroxide some spots but I haven't really seen much change.
I'm ready to try a new approach.

Unfortunately it can’t be dosed just manually as if mixed with water and left it will settle it’s organic carbon and it doesn’t dissolve hence the way that it feed a different type of bacteria compared to vodka or vinegar that dissolves straight away and stimulate a different type of bacteria that will oxidise inorganic nutrients instead of organic nutrients (the ones that release ammonia)
A protein skimmer is essential if you have a bare tank to aid removing the bacteria and the nutrient trapped into their body mass, if you have a system full of life with plenty of filter feeders, coral and zooplankton the nutrients will travel the trophic levels and stored in tho the biomass of the top of the chain, normally they are the fish, coral, sponges, feather dusters, copepods etc… it will aid establish a complete trophic level in a system.

 

[brandon429]

@MPCReefer that's one of the best example tanks to work on so far, excellent.

if you can curb that before it takes over that's where the demand is, right there on the starting patch before full real estate command.

 

[sixty_reefer]

agreed

I put this link in some invasion posts not because I want to flippantly risk other people's systems, it's that I trust modulating nitrate and phosphate and or that doser above for twenty bucks is not a tank killing combo. it either fixes the issue in pattern or it doesnt

similarly, SunnyX did not harm anyone's tank in his work thread of 13 pages. I rate his success rate at 30%, we need to improve upon that rate.

in the massive dinos thread, they're mainly doing N and P guesstimation adjustment and they too fix about 30% or less of respondents, in my opinion from scanning the thread multiple years.

this method is not dangerous. I can't link it to bleaching or coral loss, unlike chemiclean. anyone can link that to tank losses and coral bleaching with a quick search.


peroxide too; I think Sixty's method is safer than the myriad tanks we zapped with peroxide right into the water.

I'm relaying this to friends in hopes it makes them not need the deep dive eight hour rip clean surgery.

Tank you for the help, we all just want the same that is help folks spending more time enjoying a their systems and less time fighting nuisances, I hope that many folks in a near future understand that nitrates and phosphates are not the root cause of the issues we deal with. From all the nutrients nitrogen is the one that can affect us greatly and the forms of nitrogen can be tested for at the moment we have to learn to interpret the signs in our system.
ammonia is only a problem if nuisance are present once the system is mature enough and pest free allowing for the ammonia levels to rise again will promote rapid coral growth, we can do that by lowering our phosphates to almost undetectable levels. This will limit the growth of heterotrophic bacteria and allow ammonia to become more available. Very low nutrient can only be used in system that are pest free and have plenty of coral to use it.

 

[brandon429]

my little system is an ideal test for it because pico reefs accelerate all dynamic shifts larger reefs take weeks to show

a 17 year old packed vase full of corals with no skimmer will quickly go eutrophic and reflect systemic issues large tankers can expect to arrive at much more slowly, they'll have to wait longer to see the pros and cons of the method vs an aged pico reef. plus on my system if anything looks strange a do over physical rip clean takes only 30 mins.

its aging pattern timing/need for deep cleans is very predictable so if these routine small additions stave it off past March that will be significant.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Agreed. I refuse to accept a reading of zero as being ok. Many people say that the algae is taking up all the nutrients faster than you can measure thats why you get false zero result. I think if this is true then there is zero in the water column so no food for the corals so I dose N and P as needed to keep levels detectable even though there is algae present.

I believe that everything has its place, there is many systems thriving in zero or near zero phosphates and nitrates, although no one explains in detail why that happens.
In a system that is mature, nuisance free and full of coral this is really good method to increase nitrogen in the form of ammonia, corals just like algae love ammonia due to being so easily assimilate. In this situation ammonia is increased due the limitations in heterotrophic bacteria by depleted phosphates.
in a young system that has nuisance and coral this is not a good idea due to algae being just as effective at assimilating ammonia. You see why is a bad idea to fight algae by depleting nitrates or phosphates, instead of reducing nutrients for the algae folks are actually increasing nitrogen in the form of ammonia and the algae will actually take over much faster.
folks are being mislead by folks with bigger audiences that still believe nitrates and phosphates are the root cause.

in a way they not wrong although they not right either, in the situation you mention above the nutrients are being consumed by the algae although they not consuming nitrate they using all the ammonia and by effect reducing nitrates.
If ammonia is being used by the algae there won’t be much ammonia left for nitrifying bacteria to oxidise into nitrates and if nitrates are depleted there is no source of energy for coral or source of energy for beneficial heterotrophic bacteria



Nine days in with flux and cyano patches are already appearing. Is there a particular product or process you would recommend, reef actif? At this point I have gha, cyano, and what I'm pretty sure is bryopsis. Its not what I call overrun but a nuisance just the same. I just did a little reading on Dr Tim's program using Re Fresh and Waste Away but am hesitant as I always am about adding anything. I used to think just waiting things out and letting a tank mature on its own is best but I'm not so sure any longer. I fixed cars for 38 years so my science and chemistry skills are non existent beyond what I gather here and online.


this is due to the ammonia that algae was using being redirected to another nuisance in your situation is Cyanobacteria although it could be other depending on what’s present in the system.
your best chance here is to reduce ammonia by promoting a good nitrifying population or reduce ammonia by adding reef actif.
waste away works similar to reef actif imo it’s bacteria and organic carbon that will reduce organic nutrients. Both are good although everyone will already have the bacteria present they just need that bit extra carbon to work more efficiently at reducing organic waste

 

[sixty_reefer]

I'm going to see if I can find any local, if not I'll order some. and give this method a try. Heck if it helps with the glass it will be worth it. I have to clean my glass daily and I'm not even close to being a perfectionist.

To me having to clean a glass daily is a sign of high ammonia already, micro algaes that form in glass are a good way to interpret this. My glass can go for around four weeks without cleaning, it’s annoying as feather dusters start to grow on it and scratch the glass.

 

[sixty_reefer]

if it works for you guys I will try some on my old pico reef. the first sign that I need to cut back on feeding is advanced glass cleaning, I would like to cut that down and still be able to keep my feed rate up without inside glass wiping once it starts to age out again.

it also appears nobody should rush this method, if it takes 2-3 mos to turn a challenge tank around that's no issue, often times they've been challenged a year or longer before posting for assistance

that's quite fast repair in the big picture for such little effort.

Definitely not rush, it’s still organic carbon and overdosed will end up in bacterial bloom. Just follow instructions for each system volume

 

[brandon429]

hey how much would you recommend I add of the supplement in a packed out one gallon vase, no fish

how often each week

 

[sixty_reefer]

I have been dealing with a GHA outbreak for a couple months. Tank just hit two year mark and I have not had any GHA until this current outbreak. I did battle dinos (LCA) for about 6 months around the 1 year mark. I have a pretty heavy fish load (9 total: 2 wrasses, Fox Face, Tomini, RG, Bellus Angel, 2 Springer Damsels, Flame Hawk) in a 110 gallon system. Running an ATS which has really kicked in and that in combination (maybe?) has driven N03 down to 2-3 and P04 runs around .1. Nitrates before the ATS really kicked in were running in the 20's. I also dosed triple dose of bio digest bacteria three weeks ago that contributed to N03 decrease.

GHA I have been pulling out as I can, but it keeps growing, although I blacked out one side of my tank closest to a window a week ago and GHA growth seems to be slowing somewhat and it seems to be thinning out. Mainly concentrated in the right side of tank but a few spots throughout. Cleanup crew consists of a rock boring urchin hitchhiker, several turbos and astrea snails, and several hermit crabs.

Currently contemplating dosing N03 to bring it back up as I believe SPS corals (the few I have) are suffering a bit at lower levels. Soft corals doing great, though. Do not want to go the chemical route.

Wondering if dosing N03 up to 10 or so and employing this method might help. But, like others would need a plan.

Hi there is no harm in raising nitrates, as they not a major influence on the algae growth, is always best to keep them in a range that can be safely monitored specially if you are using organic carbon, your ats is a good method to outcompete algae although Refugium can only compete for ammonia they not resolving the root cause that is producing ammonia. Organic carbon can help reduce the organic compounds that are releasing ammonia, and resolve the issue that way, this will only slow the algae you may need to get the cuc in there to finish the work and once resolved just use it as a maintenance dose to keep it at bae. Keep your nitrates and phosphates detectable at all times.
Investing in good flow and mechanical ways to extract organic nutrients are also a way to reduce ammonia although this is something that should be implemented from the beginning at this point we need to act differently imo

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

@Turbo's Aquatics

I'm very interested in your take on scrubber dynamics and plant update in general in reef tanks. Why is it that one round of algae on the rocks of an invasion tank, the first growth that hasn't been exported it's just sitting there for months, gets assumed to command all future nutrients such that test kits can't read it

Following the thread and will try my best to give insight...but I have a lot going on. This concept is very interesting to me though...

 

[Dburr1014]

Dosing has to be done manually, reef actif is in powder form and will have to be mixed with tank water and agitated to mix. It can’t be done via dosing unit unfortunately. I prefer to dose it at lights out although you could dose it at any time really the advantage of dosing at light out is to reduce it from being used by photosynthetic organisms.
the amount varies with volume the introduction says a full scoop per 132 gallons tree times a week, I just divide my full amount and do it daily.

the first sign that it’s working would be glass maintenance you should observe less green algae forming on the glass hence less glass maintenance, in time you should observe the Cyanobacteria receding naturally and starting to melt, with the GHA you will see it turning brown.

Okay, I can dose manually.

So what about the dosing of no3 and po4. Do we stop dosing or continue doing what we're doing?
What about cheato. Will this be effected in any way? Are there any preps we have to do for it before we start the program?

I'm going to take some pics tonight of the tank and sump so you can see what I have.
I clean the glass sometimes every few days and sometimes I can go a couple weeks. I'm thinking my nutrients fluctuate from month to month. I know some coral get growth spurts and then slow down, then another colony will get the growth spurt. Kinda strange.
I will order up some actif also.

I'm sure there will be more questions.

 

[sixty_reefer]

hey how much would you recommend I add of the supplement in a packed out one gallon vase, no fish

how often each week

I dose just the tip of the spoon in a 25gallons, so no more that that little clump inside the black circle.
it’s the downside of the product, it’s a full spoon for 132 gallons meaning that you would have to divide that spoon by 132, not sure why they made it that way it’s not simple to use in smaller systems

 

[Kato]

One thing that was mentioned on the first page, which I agree in, but hasn't received much attention since, is the benefit of ammonia to corals. I believe they prefer it vs nitrate. With enough coral it can be consumed very quickly. In fact, I run my system with close to 0 Nitrate, but make sure I do have enough organic compounds (in fact dose it via TM Bacto Balance). So probably worth pointing out again, that when algae is gone (if it helps) that corals may suffer if you don't have a constant supply of ammonia.

Also keep in mind fish excrete ammonia through their gills. In fact I contribute a lot of bad coral growth tanks to not enough (or not big enough) fish (unless you dose, in which case you can run coral tank without fish).

 

[brandon429]

Kato nice call. there is a thread called "does anyone dose ammonia" and for about 14 pages they're dosing liquid cycling ammonia into reefs, who eat it right up and look great.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I dose Red Sea Reef Energy AB+ if I think DOC is low, and carbon dose daily at a very low level w/ vinegar. Small amounts of live Phyto probably add to the organic carbon level also. I think that in the absence of other organic input, the combination could promote a healthy mix of heterotrophic bacteria. I must admit that I don't need the AB+ much anymore because I have fifteen decent sized fish in my 90 that get fed a lot. I do still dose a little Phyto to feed the Pods, but available ammonia and carbon aren't too much of an issue anymore.

I used too much AB+ a while back. It is very high in carbohydrates. The result was Cyano.

 

[Kato]

Kato nice call. there is a thread called "does anyone dose ammonia" and for about 14 pages they're dosing liquid cycling ammonia into reefs, who eat it right up and look great.

Yeah I believe it's very important to corals. I aim to always have detectable PO4 (must have PO4), and nitrate as close to zero as possible (but can't never really be zero). But I always make sure I have a constant supply of nitrogen.

And nitrate level says nothing about ammonia and coral supply. Can have a tank with 50 nitrate, yet very little to no constant supply of ammonia which I believe will make coral suffer.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Okay, I can dose manually.

So what about the dosing of no3 and po4. Do we stop dosing or continue doing what we're doing?
What about cheato. Will this be effected in any way? Are there any preps we have to do for it before we start the program?

I'm going to take some pics tonight of the tank and sump so you can see what I have.
I clean the glass sometimes every few days and sometimes I can go a couple weeks. I'm thinking my nutrients fluctuate from month to month. I know some coral get growth spurts and then slow down, then another colony will get the growth spurt. Kinda strange.
I will order up some actif also.

I'm sure there will be more questions.

You will have to interpret your system, we all have different organisms up-taking nutrients, you just need to take the following into consideration:

1. nitrates and phosphates have to be maintained detectable at all times,

the reason being is that if you are going to deplete ammonia from a system fully you will have to give the coral a alternative source of energy wile fighting against the nuisance, they will have to use more energy to use nitrates although the import aspect is that they will have a source of energy available. If nitrates and ammonia is fully depleted then your corals will starve and perish.
Once your system is fully depleted from nuisance organisms you can allow for ammonia to return to allow corals to grow it need to be done in phases first get rid of the algae and den allow corals to grow.

2. Chaeto is fine he will start using nitrates in the absence of ammonia this is why it have to be you at interpreting your system if chaeto starts growing and using all the nitrates you may want to act on it to not allow the system to become depleted of nitrates or phosphates

3. The good thing about this source of organic carbon is that it seems to stimulate more the growth of bacteria that assimilate organic nutrients Vs other forms of carbon that will stimulate the growth of bacteria that prefers inorganic nutrients like nitrates and a little phosphates.

4. if you don’t want to use this product forever evaluate your filtration and flow, is all waste being removed efficiently is detritus staying on the sand bed? Etc..
organic nutrients trapped in the sandbed and rock are the root cause of the issue in the first place

5. All photosynthetic organism will thrive on ammonia evaluate your current stock including brown and green film algae.

6. you will only be stalling the algae growth and cleaning the system from build up detritus, to fully eradicate it you will need cuc and competition from photosynthetic organisms ex. Chaeto

the growth spurs is wend your system has increased ammonia look at what could possibly be causing it, example taking longer at replacing filter sock. There is many other that could be influencing it.

looking forward to see your

 

[DHill6]

Very interesting read, will be following. Always open to new Reefing ideas. I just put an Oxidator in a Reefer 170, what a difference in glass and water, coral. Not to derail this thread by any means, just my observation. BB tank.

 

[beesnreefs]

I have a 6-month old mixed reef that went through a battle with SCA which I successfully defeated using nutrient management (dosing NeoNitro and NeoPhos daily to achieve 100:1 ratio), daily dosing of live phyto, daily dosing of beneficial bacteria (rotation of MB7, EcoBalance, and LifeSource), big dosing of live pods, adding live ocean rock, and a healthy dose of patience.

Now I have some big patches of cyano and, in the last week, GHA starting to grow. I'm trying hard to play the slow game and not go nuclear on things....really want to build a healthy, sustainable system. But man, it's hard sometimes.

I no longer have to dose nutrients and am maintaining consistent 100:1 ratio (nitrates are around 7-9, phosphates are 0.07-0.09 with daily testing).

Will dosing Reef Actif help with my cyano/GHA issues?

Any risk in this reducing nitrates/phosphates and dinos returning?

 

[Dburr1014]

Pictures, sorry not in order.
GHA under coral

Side and tank pics where problems are.

Behind my blue ridge.

Under coral, very tight spot to get at

Warring coral, hammer and holloween.
This is always a problem, that "no man's land" where hair pops up.

Sump, cheato compartment and Rubbermaid tub. Lots of coralline but you can see the cyano also.


Today's results.