THE CHEMICAL INTERACTION BETWEEN SPECIES AS A HYPOTHESIS FOR A MATURE TANK

[Subsea]

IME there is not a direct relation cause-efect between nitrate and phosphate concentration and algae quantity, as there are many other factors involved, mainly allelopathy between bacteria, phytoplankton, zooplankton, corals and other invertebrates. A mature tank implies a previous bentic succession of bacteria, protists, phyto and zooplankton that allow the ecosystem (the tank) to self regulate its species populations through chemical interaction. After some time, no one of the species is able to get such a big advantage over the rest because its growth is inhibited by the others. This is the situation of equilibrium (or stability). Stability and diversity are causes and consecuences of each other, some type of an autocatalytic loop

@Beuchat
Because I am a simple man, I look for clarity in words and because words have specific meanings, I look for common ground to discuss with clarity “.points of view”.

As I told @Lasse, your research language was above my pay grade. So, I got a Google research dictionary and I went to school to learn new words:

Did I understand correctly and does the research paper below describe how gene expression works in the marine ecosystem of the coral holibiont?

Autocatalytic Loop, Amplification and Diffusion: A Mathematical and Computational Model of Cell Polarization in Neural Chemotaxis

The chemotactic response of cells to graded fields of chemical cues is a complex process that requires the coordination of several intracellular activities. Fundamental steps to obtain a front vs. back differentiation in the cell are the localized distribution ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Autocatalytic Loop, Amplification and Diffusion: A Mathematical and Computational Model of Cell Polarization in Neural Chemotaxis​

 

[Beuchat]

This got long - but thank you again for the article and I hope that my post will take the discussion further. Note - I do not say your wrong but there is things to discuss IMO

No problem at all, I am happy to read comments and different opinions

Few would buy the book, if the author said that the reader was the problem with maturity in his tank

Not exactly

 

[Beuchat]

Did I understand correctly and does the research paper below describe how gene expression works in the marine ecosystem of the coral holibiont?

Hi Subsea, in my article I used the term autocatalytic in reference to a process that is facilitated by the occurrence of some factors that are also facilitated by the process itself. It is a kind of feedback loop. Hope it is not giving more confusion that clarity. What I am saying is that stability facilitates diversity and vice-versa.

 

[Subsea]

Hi Subsea, in my article I used the term autocatalytic in reference to a process that is facilitated by the occurrence of some factors that are also facilitated by the process itself. It is a kind of feedback loop. Hope it is not giving more confusion that clarity. What I am saying is that stability facilitates diversity and vice-versa.

Positive feedback loop works for me. I am an instrumentation engineer as well as a marine engineer. We can get technical.

 

[Beuchat]

Positive feedback loop works for me. I am an instrumentation engineer as well as a marine engineer. We can get technical.

Thanks!

 

[Subsea]

Some years ago, @Randy Holmes-Farley article on phosphate sequestering of calcium phosphate in reef tank sediments by Cynobacteria mats. He discribes a similar auto feedback loop where Cynobacteria consumes/assimilate phosphate.

 

[Beuchat]

Some years ago, @Randy Holmes-Farley article on phosphate sequestering of calcium phosphate in reef tank sediments by Cynobacteria mats. He discribes a similar auto feedback loop where Cynobacteria consumes/assimilate phosphate.

I see, thanks

 

[Subsea]

Stability Facilitates Diversity and Diversity Facilitates Stability.

Platinum Rule is better than the gold standard.

 

[Subsea]

Algae, unavoidable companions.

[Algae are undoubtedly one of the inhabitants of a reef tank that cause the biggest headaches to hobbyists. In a world idealized by aesthetics, we might wish that these living beings were out of our system, however, this wish makes no biological and ecological sense. Algae are part of the food web of any aquarium, actively participating in the recycling of nutrients and contributing to the maintenance of adequate levels of nitrate, phosphate and CO2 in the water. "Aseptic" aquariums cannot exist.]

“Aseptic aquariums can not exist.”

That is a bold statement that I agree with. To make the point, I will quote @Paul B

“Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.“

"Mulm" in a Reef tank

I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can...

www.reef2reef.com

“I think one of the most important, and least understood or mentioned things in a reef tank is "mulm". That stuff that grows in the dark portions of a tank if it is set up long enough. "Mulm" is a combination of algae, sponges, bacteria, pods, worms, detritus, poop and any thing else that can be propagated or grown in the dark. I realize most people would immediately get out the sponge, razor blade or grenade to remove it but there is a word I like to use to describe those people. That word is "wrong". Mulm is a natural product that you will find in the sea all over the world. Our tanks run on bacteria, algae and a food chain. Bacteria and a food chain are dependent on having a place to reproduce. Mulm is the perfect place. Rocks and glass are flat surfaces that are only two dimensional. Mulm makes these places three dimensional allowing much more space for bacteria and microscopic organisms to grow and do the macarana. (They love to dance) Pods, which are needed for any small fish also need to eat and their numbers are directly related to how much food they can get their hands on (or whatever pods use to eat with) The more food, the more pods, the more pods, the easier to keep smaller fish. Larger fish such as copperbands and angels also eat pods.
Many people try to keep fish such as pipefish, mandarins or other dragonettes in a sterile tank and while feeding them a couple of times a day with tiger pods or some other expensive food. Those types of fish will not live for long in such a tank and they certainly won't spawn which I consider the "only" criteria to determine the state of health for any paired fish.
Mulm (after a while, maybe a few years) should grow on the back and sides of glass as well as under rocks.
Here in this picture of my clingfish, the mulm appears green. It is really brownish and that fish is on the side of my tank. I brightened up the picture and turned it sideways because it was in the dark and the fish was hard to see.
There is a thick layer of it on the back of my tank where my mandarins and pipefish like to hunt. My long spined urchin also grazes there most of the time as there is not much algae in my tank for him to eat. He is many years old as are the mandarins and pipefish and they are dependent on this food source.
A sterile tank IMO is the biggest problem we have keeping certain fish healthy.
Sterile is good in an operating room but very bad in a tank.“

 

[IntrinsicReef]

Organic carbon dosing is very effective in controlling dinoflagellates such as Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum and Amphidinium, provided that nitrate and phosphate are not allowed
to drop to undetectable values during treatment. Heterotrophic bacteria generate natural algaecide compounds that inhibit dinoflagellate growth.

Great article, and I agree with most everything. I have solved dinoflagellate outbreaks many times in client tanks by carbon dosing. The fad of putting small frags of expensive slow-growing coral in new tanks is a major cause of problems. People would be much better off putting some fast growing leathers or SPS that will outcompete algae, then adding their collector corals later. Algae just doesn't grow as fast in a tank dominated by coral.

 

[Subsea]

As an organic gardener, I grow the soil, then the soil grows the plant.

I really like this section of your article, especially your comment about long term strategy vs short term.

@Beuchat said
Increase nutrients to favor competition.

“In cases where cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates, diatoms and some hair algae pests are started, if inorganic nutrients are too low, the algae that can live in those conditions (which are the majority) will not be subject to competition from other organisms, which thrive in water with higher nutrient concentrations. For example, it is well known that many species of coraline algae spread better when nitrate concentration is high (not the case with high phosphate concentration, because it inhibits the precipitation of calcium carbonate).

The strategy of increasing nitrate and phosphate levels to combat algae pests does not work in the short term, but it does work in the long term and especially as a preventive measure. Once the pest is established, mechanical actions are clearly a good option, e.g., pruning, siphoning or even carefully removing the rocks from the tank and pouring a hydrogen peroxide solution over them.”

 

[Subsea]

@Beuchat said

[Chemical interaction between tank inhabitants.]
The hypothesis that I present in this article is that the chemical interaction between micro and macro-organisms that inhabit the aquarium has a great relevance in the robustness of a tank against destabilizing events that are potentially triggering algal pests. I will now present some evidence that, in my opinion, can justify this hypothesis:

- A tank maintained with a very small population of corals and other invertebrates (relative to the net water volume) is usually much more prone to permanent algae pests.

- Water changes make cyanobacteria and dinoflagellate infestations worse, and I believe this is due to two factors primarily:

o Nutrient dilution.

o Dilution of allelopathy compounds that inhibit the growth of dinoflagellates and cyanobacteria. It is striking the fact that a bloom of dinos, cyano and even
hair algae, are initiated in a "synchronized" way at different spots of the tank, at exactly at the same time. This suggests the existence of "chemical signals" or, at
least, significant changes in the water concentration of certain inhibitory compounds released by competing species. It is relatively easy to find scientific papers
that support this evidence.

- Organic carbon dosing is very effective in controlling dinoflagellates such as Ostreopsis, Prorocentrum and Amphidinium, provided that nitrate and phosphate are not allowed
to drop to undetectable values during treatment. Heterotrophic bacteria generate natural algaecide compounds that inhibit dinoflagellate growth.

<- The use of "miracle" products such as commercial chemical algaecides (e.g., heavy metals), can eradicate the pest, but often make a big hole in the food web, so that another
invasive species is able to occupy the available niche after the death of the previous one. In this way, pests follow one after another in the tank: cyanobacteria,
dinoflagellates,filamentous, etc.>

I say:
A coordinated mass event in reef tank sounds like crosstalk & gene expression amongst the “little people”, the Microbial Overlords. The above paragragrh should warn reefers about using “snake oil“ products that ravage healthy bacteria groups are worse:

Contributing to Pathogens Immune to Antibiotics“.

 

[Subsea]

@Beuchat said
Low nutrients, a guarantee of algae absence?

“Algae are true survivors in their ecological niche. This implies they can thrive with very little: little light, little nitrate, little phosphate, little CO2, and additionally trace elements, which are almost always available in the necessary concentrations (which are extraordinarily low). We hobbyists have a strong tendency to think that maintaining low levels of inorganic nutrients equates to being less likely to have algae infestations, however, there are frequent and numerous evidence that there is no such relationship, at least in a strictly cause-effect way.

In my experience and that of many other hobbyists, keeping nitrate and phosphate concentrations at permanently low levels (e.g., below 0.06 ppm for phosphate and 3 ppm for nitrate) has implied greater long-term persistence of cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates, and filamentous algae. The reality is that, once bloom is initiated, nutrient reduction is absolutely useless to stop propagation, especially during the initial exponential reproduction phase, which can last for several weeks.”

 

[Rocky Mountain Reef]

Hi jK75gal, there is no need to rush or assimilate too much information at the same time. One of the best ways to get a good base of diversity of microorganisms is to use live rock for the aquarium set-up. If you have started with inert rock, your tank will behave in an unstable manner for a little while longer, but eventually everything will return to a state of equilibrium because life will make its way in and many of the beneficial microorganisms (bacteria, single-celled algae, zooplankton) will accidentally enter with the corals and other invertebrates. Also if you add live phytoplankton and zooplankton cultures, although in moderation.


Yes, you can siphon the cyanobacteria at the end of the day, just before lights out. I recommend that you do not replace the water. Use a sock to return the water to the sump and then discard any cyanobacteria that remain attached to the sock. Make sure that the nitrate and phosphate concentrations are not too low or zero, you can remove the skimmer cup or increase the amount of food.



It is not easy to quantify the degree of diversity of microorganisms in a reef aquarium. Currently there are companies that offer DNA sequencing techniques, although it would also be convenient to take different biological samples (sand, rocks, tank walls) and look at them under the microscope. In any case, as you are just starting out, it is not worth getting too complicated with these issues. Focus on the actions that with 20% of your effort will produce 80% of benefit in your tank and enjoy!

Hi Angel...I have a 16 month old aquarium of about 800L. I restarted in the hobby after 10 years, before which I had a marine aquarium for about 10 years. I am going through all you discuss in your article and resulting posts and having finally conquered most algae (in particular explosions of hair algae 3-4 times) I am stabilizing on many fronts except aiptasia. Any thoughts on battling it? I feel this product Joes Juice is the simplest to apply and seems to work well, but it's a bear to apply in a 30" deep tank and so many pests covering all the rock. I also have Aiptasia Eating Filefish, but it is content eating just the food I feed all the other fish, so on to a Copperband soon. I look forward to hearing your expert thinking on this predicament. I am starting to populate with Acropora and Monti's, so don't want to harm them as they grow.

 

[Lasse]

I have good experiences with Copperbands. I have also recently learn that Scartella cristata - The Molly Miller Blenny is a good option.

sincerely Lasse

 

[Beuchat]

Hi Angel...I have a 16 month old aquarium of about 800L. I restarted in the hobby after 10 years, before which I had a marine aquarium for about 10 years. I am going through all you discuss in your article and resulting posts and having finally conquered most algae (in particular explosions of hair algae 3-4 times) I am stabilizing on many fronts except aiptasia. Any thoughts on battling it? I feel this product Joes Juice is the simplest to apply and seems to work well, but it's a bear to apply in a 30" deep tank and so many pests covering all the rock. I also have Aiptasia Eating Filefish, but it is content eating just the food I feed all the other fish, so on to a Copperband soon. I look forward to hearing your expert thinking on this predicament. I am starting to populate with Acropora and Monti's, so don't want to harm them as they grow.

Hi @Rocky Mountain Reef

Aiptasias are difficult to eliminate so I would recommend that you attack them in several ways. The use of products such as joes juice can be complemented, as indicated by your colleagues, with biological control, but it does not always work. If you can get a fish that consumes them from a hobbyist's aquarium that has solved the problem, you would have a better chance of getting rid of them.

 

[MBruun]

I had forests of Aiptasia in my 700 liter tank - old school setup with ceramic back wall hosted a huge amount of Aiptasia...
A Copperband and 4 lysmata wurdemanni eliminated them.
The first month it look like nothing happened, but then they got the taste for it.
Think the natural way of eliminating pests are the best path to choose in the long run

 

[Subsea]

@Beuchat

In researching information on a Lasse thread, I think the link supports your hypothesis better

Discovery of symbiotic nitrogen-fixing cyanobacteria in corals - PubMed

Colonies of the Caribbean coral Montastraea cavernosa exhibit a solar-stimulated orange-red fluorescence that is spectrally similar to a variety of fluorescent proteins expressed by corals. The source of this fluorescence is phycoerythrin in unicellular, nonheterocystis, symbiotic cyanobacteria...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Abstract​

Colonies of the Caribbean coral Montastraea cavernosa exhibit a solar-stimulated orange-red fluorescence that is spectrally similar to a variety of fluorescent proteins expressed by corals. The source of this fluorescence is phycoerythrin in unicellular, nonheterocystis, symbiotic cyanobacteria within the host cells of the coral. The cyanobacteria coexist with the symbiotic dinoflagellates (zooxanthellae) of the coral and express the nitrogen-fixing enzyme nitrogenase. The presence of this prokaryotic symbiont in a nitrogen-limited zooxanthellate coral suggests that nitrogen fixation may be an important source of this limiting element for the symbiotic association.
PubMed Disclaimer

Last

 

[Subsea]

Angel,

I think this post adds value & supports your hypothesis

Coral Holibiont

Is God a mathematician, an engineer? It is possible that God is a human concept. One more model that our brain builds to try to understand nature, which continues to elusive a single theory.For the moment we have to settle for different “model realities” that give partial but very effective...

www.reef2reef.com

post #75.

@vlangel said
I read this thread and have enjoyed the discussion. Thank you all.

I have to admit that even though I would consider myself a successful reef aquarist with 25 years experience, I am a baby reefer in terms of the science. I learned the fundamental biology in the late 90s at the lfs I worked at but most of what I know is just practical knowledge.

Although this isn't the main point of this thread, (but with all the discussion of OTS) I am feeling incredibly fortunate that I have never had a tank crash as my first real reef tank was up about 10 years, and it had a deep sand bed. It was a 90 gallon. I took it down when my husband's mom who lived with us became confined to bed and her care was so overwhelming that I sold my tank to concentrate on her. (I will say I was pleasantly surprised how fresh smelling that 10 year old deep sand bed was). My husband then bought me a 36 gallon because he wanted me to still have a reef but something more manageable. Five years later when my caregiving duties were over I upgraded to the 56 gallon reef I have now. That was Nov 2016 so this tank is over 7 years old. I have always used deep sand beds and the only maintenance that is done on the sand beds (because I have one in the sump too) is by the nassarius snails and Karl, my Atlantic cucumber, and oh yeah Rice Krispies, my pistol shrimp in the sump. I see worms and pods also at work on them.

My boss at the lfs had set up dozens of tanks with deep sand beds that I maintained. One of those tanks belongs to a friend of mine and her tank still has the original deep sand bed and rock that was set up almost 25 years ago.

However just because I have never seen it, (referring to what some call OTS) doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I believe in entropy, so I realize that there could be things at work in my tank that I cannot see nor understand, that could be moving my tank ever closer to a steady decline, or worse a catastrophic crash. Again deep sand beds were not the only things discussed as contributing factors to the decline of a tank but it is one aspect that many reefers are afraid of.

Prior to reading this thread, I never really accepted that deep sand beds poison a tank (if it's not disturbed) because that has never been my experience. However most of you folks have more experience and definitely more scientific knowledge than me so I am feeling a little nervous now. Maybe the circumstances of my life brought on resets to my tanks just in the knick of time? Who knows, maybe the LORD GOD of the universe Who I believe in, (but I respect each of your choices to believe in what you choose) saw fit to spare me the pain of loss and allowed the circumstances of my life to circumvent that scenario? Of course that is not to say that He is obligated to not let my tank crash tomorrow! I certainly do not believe that, but I do believe that I experience mercy that I do not deserve. So since my tank is my responsibility, hence my interest in this thread to try and learn all I can to protect my creatures from any mishaps. I learn and do what I can and then I let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Subsea]

@Beuchat

Angel,
I received Reef Fundamentals yesterday! Thank you for this gift to Reefers & Humanity.


If fundamental conveys; basic introduction, you would be wrong. I read a lot of in-depth academia research. Angel transcends the dry language of peer reviewed papers and with poetic license wades into the complex world of biochemistry and crosstalk amongst the microbes.