Thoughts on methods of eliminating water changes ?

[Paul B]

I wash my car with it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As for dosing silicates for sponges, I am not sure about that. I just trimmed about half a pound of sponge in my tank and gave it away because it grows to fast and I never dosed silicates or even know how to do that.

Not all sponges use silicate. Perhaps you have cultivated types that do not.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3216517/

Silicon uptake by sponges: a twist to understanding nutrient cycling on continental margins

"About 75% of extant sponge species use dissolved silicon (DSi) to build a siliceous skeleton."

 

[Paul B]

Randy, you could be correct (and I hate it when you are) I do have a couple of red sponges and they shrunk many times over in a year, but this blue one just keeps growing. Maybe the red ones use silicates. Ihave no idea and will not start dosing silicates now because maybe this large sponge hates silicates and lives on chicken soup.
I will read your sponge link.

 

[Paul B]

Very cool, I read it. I found it very interesting especially this part:

Conservative field surveys along 100 km of the relatively sponge-poor and oligotrophic Mediterranean rocky sublittoral where Axinella spp. grew (see Methods and Supplementary Information: Section 1) revealed that siliceous sponges average 0.34±0.52 L m−2 (n = 100 quadrats) and ambient DSi 0.73±0.44 µM (n = 240 water samples over a year cycle). At that ambient DSi concentration, sponge uptake rate is predicted to average 1.31±0.79 × 10−3 µmol Si per h and sponge ml (according to equation in Fig. 2). It means that the sponge fauna per m2 of rocky habitat at this Mediterranean coast use yearly about 3.9±5.9 mmol DSi. Such consumption represents yearly about 21.4±32.7% of the average DSi available in a 30m overlying sublittoral water column and about 10.7±16.3% of that in a 50 deep water column. Similarly, we have conservatively estimated (see Methods) on 21 km2 of a Mesoamerican continental shelf (Belize) that the abundance of siliceous sponges averages 2.6±14.3 L per m2 of bottom13. Mean yearly DSi:

I have absolutely no idea what that was about, none at all but it all sounds very good.
I go by SCUBA diving. If I want to know about a sponge, I go to the place it lives and swim down to it to see what it is doing. In other words, I am to stupid to understand most of that link.
I do however have a load of other, white sponges in my reef that are growing under the rocks only in the dark so I assume I have the 25% of sponges that don't require silicates.

 

[TbyZ]

A RUGF creates an atmosphere where pods, worms, tube worms, bacteria and Godzilla larvae can live and reproduce all the way through the gravel and especially in the detritus laden area under the filter plate. That is a place absolutely filled with pods and worms which I can see through the bottom glass. But it depends on what you want to keep. I have breeding mandarins, 2 pairs of pipe fish and 5 or 6 queen anthias along with a few other creatures that rely on pods and worms. If you keep a tank full of moray eels, lionfish and manta rays you don't need this microcosm of miniature food sources. I personally run a very natural tank and don't use almost any of the things written about in this thread.

For many years my nitrates were under 10. Now they are 160 (as tested by a LFS because I don't have or want test kits)
My phosphate is 2.0. I don't care what the readings are because I believe most of this hobby is run on rumors. If nitrate and phosphate caused algae, I would be able to open up a produce stand in front of my tank.
But I have no algae.
Corals supposedly don't like high nitrates. I keep mostly a LPS, gorgonians, sponges and softy tank but I do have a few SPS that have quadrupled in size and have had many grow to large. (Those all croaked in an accident when my Supermodel tank sitter let the water level fall 7")

My nitrates are considered high because I keep my fish healthy which means spawning. To do that, you must feed way to much for a tank full of SPS which I am not striving for. I also use no dry foods.
I also think all this talk of trace elements is silly except if you are going for "no" water changes at all. I only change about 20% of my tank 4 or 5 times a year and only dose baking soda and drive way ice melter.
My tank runs fine and has no problems even after decades so maybe a Reverse Undergravel filter is needed to keep a tank this long, no one really knows.

Hi Paul;
so the space underneath the RUGF plate is itself a haven for pods etc, & benificial when used in the actual aquarium (not necessarily in the sump) if keeping fish that specifically eat that food. OK, sounds good!

But, aside from the above benifit, and providing surface area for aerobic bacteria to grow, are there any other useful benifits of using a RUGF, anywhere in the system?

Now, algae needs nitrogen & phosphate to grow. It is a fertilizer. Can you give an explanation for the absence of algae in [your] system (other than your algae scrubber) with NO3 @ 160ppm & PO4 @ 2.0ppm?
Do you have fish that graze?

I bought an acro once. It died within a week. I later found out that my NO3 was somewhere over 60ppm & PO4 was over 3.0ppm. After getting those nutrients down to normally acceptable levels I added a new piece of acro & it did fine. I had to draw the conclusion that the high nutrients were to blame. Yet you have found high nutrients are no problem for your sps? Were your sps introduced to your tank when your nutrients were at normally acceptable levels, or later when the nutrient levels were high?

Am I correct - you don't measure alk or calcium either?

cheers, & long live supermodels.

 

[TbyZ]

I do however have a load of other, white sponges in my reef that are growing under the rocks only in the dark

I'd like a sump full of those sponges. What a wonderful natural filter.

 

[Tristren]

I do however have a load of other, white sponges in my reef that are growing under the rocks only in the dark so I assume I have the 25% of sponges that don't require silicates.

I have a bunch of those as well, and also some stuff that I can only call ectoplasm (like from ghost busters) a white foggy thing under the live rock that seems to be a sponge as well.

My tank is slightly younger than yours (about 39.5 years younger). Given that we have definitively established that the RUGF is the key to success, how do you set one up?


Tony

 

[TbyZ]

Given that we have definitively established that the RUGF is the key to success, how do you set one up?


Tony

WOW, with all due respect to all involved, where did that come from?

 

[ReeferBud]

That is the single biggest mistake I have made in this hobby and all because someone somewhere said it was a bad idea if there are any other things out there like this please let me know.

Are you saying that the biggest mistake you've made is to use a sulfur reactor? Or that the biggest mistake was that you were in the hobby for a long time before adding one?

I'm setting one up, so interested in your experience.

 

[jason2459]

Hi Paul;
so the space underneath the RUGF plate is itself a haven for pods etc, & benificial when used in the actual aquarium (not necessarily in the sump) if keeping fish that specifically eat that food. OK, sounds good!

But, aside from the above benifit, and providing surface area for aerobic bacteria to grow, are there any other useful benifits of using a RUGF, anywhere in the system?
......

I didn't see him specify it was only beneficial if setup in the display.

It provides the same benefit no mater where it's setup.

Why does it have to provide anything more then what has been stated. A safe place to multiply, a slow flow of oxygenated water, and food.

Can a sand bed do that? Partially. Can a lot of rock rubble do that? Somewhat. Is a UGF required? No.

I don't think anyone is waving plates around saying the end is nigh if you don't use one now.

 

[TbyZ]

I didn't see him specify it was only beneficial if setup in the display.

No, that's my suggestion, as the pods etc would be 'in the tank where the fish can get at them'.

It provides the same benefit no mater where it's setup.

I'm not sure its placement in a refuge/sump is as benificial for fish food unless there is some transportation system getting the pods etc from the sump to the tank.

Why does it have to provide anything more then what has been stated. A safe place to multiply, a slow flow of oxygenated water, and food.

It doesn't. I'm asking a serious question - if there are any other advantages other than food & aerobacteria activity.

But how does a RUGF create oxygen?

I don't think anyone is waving plates around saying the end is nigh if you don't use one now.

One person has done just that.

 

[jason2459]

No, that's my suggestion, as the pods etc would be 'in the tank where the fish can get at them'.



I'm not sure its placement in a refuge/sump is as benificial for fish food unless there is some transportation system getting the pods etc from the sump to the tank.

Pods will most certainly make their way to the display tank from the sump. That is no problem. But to me the breeding of a diversity of organisms is more then just feeding fish but each other.

It doesn't. I'm asking a serious question - if there are any other advantages other than food & aerobacteria activity.

But how does a RUGF create oxygen?

Biodiversity is what I am after. Not just food for fish or cycling ammonia.

The RUGF passes water that is oxygenated under the plate where as in a sand bed that can not happen nor deep under or in rocks where oxygen is depleted or non-existent.

One person has done just that.

Someone has to hold the sign.

 

[TbyZ]

How does a RUGF create oxygen?

The RUGF passes water that is oxygenated under the plate where as in a sand bed that can not happen nor deep under or in rocks where oxygen is depleted or non-existent.

But the oxygen is used up by the aerobacteria, & the pods, & the worms.

Nothing creates oxygen in a RUGF.

Photosynthesis creates oxygen.

 

[jason2459]

How does a RUGF create oxygen?



But the oxygen is used up by the aerobacteria, & the pods, & the worms.

Nothing creates oxygen in a RUGF.

Photosynthesis creates oxygen.

And there is a continuous feed of fresh oxygenated water. Where are you getting the idea that I said the UGF creates oxygen?

The pump that feeds the UGF is feeding fresh oxygenated seawater and food to the plate.

 

[TbyZ]

Where are you getting the idea that I said the UGF creates oxygen?

"Why does it have to provide anything more then what has been stated. A safe place to multiply, a slow flow of oxygenated water, and food. "

perhaps I miss understood you?

No worries

 

[jason2459]

"Why does it have to provide anything more then what has been stated. A safe place to multiply, a slow flow of oxygenated water, and food. "

perhaps I miss understood you?

No worries

Oh no problem, I was wondering how or where I was being interpreted as saying that. And by all means it is absolutely not necessary or required to have a successful tank. But what it can provide is what I'm after which is a habitat that can help produce a greater biodiversity.

 

[jason2459]

"Why does it have to provide anything more then what has been stated. A safe place to multiply, a slow flow of oxygenated water, and food. "

perhaps I miss understood you?

No worries

The slow flow of oxygenated water is from the reversed pumping of water to the plate so its pushed through the stand pipe and out the plate.

Here you can see the pump in the back there which that model can reverse its flow which is pushing down into that pipe.

 

[TbyZ]

The slow flow of oxygenated water is from the reversed pumping of water to the plate so its pushed through the stand pipe and out the plate.

Here you can see the pump in the back there which that model can reverse its flow which is pushing down into that pipe.

yes i understand how they work.

i'm old enough unfortunately to have been around when undergravel filters, run in both the standard direction & reversed, were popular.

How deep is the sand bed above your plate, &, what particle size do you use?

 

[jason2459]

yes i understand how they work.

i'm old enough unfortunately to have been around when undergravel filters, run in both the standard direction & reversed, were popular.

How deep is the sand bed above your plate, &, what particle size do you use?

With my old 55g where the plates were in the tank I used dolomite. Probably at least 2".

Currently I'm playing around with different media types and using seachem matrix (pumice stone). About 3+" of it.

 

[reef jacob]

I just do a big skimmer, red sea nopox and a tiny bit of carbon... And very established rock.