Tropic Marin All-For-Reef: Any downsides to it?

[Acros]

Yes you are correct, looking more into it, apparently it’s because calcium test kits are more reliable? (Not in my experience they are far less accurate), they say you can use either but to adjust based on calcium.

To be fair, their instructions are a little mixed up, as they start by saying Increase the daily dosage – by continuous control of the alkalinity – weekly by 2.5 ml per 100 litres (26 US-gal) of aquarium system volume, until a constant carbonate hardness of 7 to 9 °dH is reached
But then later in the small print go on to say to follow calcium for dosing regulation.

I’m with you, I know where I want my alk, not to bothered if my calcium is a little off.

Calcium test kits or not more reliable than alkalinity test kits. Calcium test kits always have a higher margin of error.

The reason why tropic marin recommends dosing according to CA is because the alk component of AFR is a slow release process involving bacteria. That is, you won’t see the alk increase immediately. It might take a day or two when dosing the first time, but after that it is usually observed with a couple of hours.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I need to chime in here to clear up some misconceptions. Hans-Werner Balling likes to recommend using the alkalinity in your system as the regulator for the AFR dosage. I prefer having people use the Ca as the regulator. The reason is that there is this difference is that in Europe, for some reason, people seem to see additional Ca uptake in relation to alkalinity when looking at consumption. Here in North America, it is almost always opposite. The vast majority of hobbyists that I work with see more alkalinity uptake in systems than Ca. I attribute this to factors like circulation, aeration and CO2 "pooling". In fact, I am very often able to resolve that discrepancy by taking a careful look at those three factors.

In any case, if your tank system tends to use more of one than the other, you are better off using the lesser of the two as the AFR dose regulator. Then just use a little extra dose of the other to supplement once in a while. If you do the opposite, then the other factor will always run higher than you would like. This is because the ration of those things is fixed in the AFR.

I don't know where this idea of "more accurate kits of one or the other" came from. It has nothing to do with the dosage regulator choice.

 

[Shirak]

I need to chime in here to clear up some misconceptions. Hans-Werner Balling likes to recommend using the alkalinity in your system as the regulator for the AFR dosage. I prefer having people use the Ca as the regulator. The reason is that there is this difference is that in Europe, for some reason, people seem to see additional Ca uptake in relation to alkalinity when looking at consumption. Here in North America, it is almost always opposite. The vast majority of hobbyists that I work with see more alkalinity uptake in systems than Ca. I attribute this to factors like circulation, aeration and CO2 "pooling". In fact, I am very often able to resolve that discrepancy by taking a careful look at those three factors.

In any case, if your tank system tends to use more of one than the other, you are better off using the lesser of the two as the AFR dose regulator. Then just use a little extra dose of the other to supplement once in a while. If you do the opposite, then the other factor will always run higher than you would like. This is because the ration of those things is fixed in the AFR.

I don't know where this idea of "more accurate kits of one or the other" came from. It has nothing to do with the dosage regulator choice.

Thanks Lou! That was my reasoning behind using Ca as my dosage determiner and just bumping Alk a little as it tends to drop a bit faster with stable Ca.

 

[Reef.]

Calcium test kits or not more reliable than alkalinity test kits. Calcium test kits always have a higher margin of error.

The reason why tropic marin recommends dosing according to CA is because the alk component of AFR is a slow release process involving bacteria. That is, you won’t see the alk increase immediately. It might take a day or two when dosing the first time, but after that it is usually observed with a couple of hours.

that was my thinking of the real reason but on their site they say the reason is…The corresponding parameter only needs to be monitored periodically. We recommend using Calcium as the dosage regulator, as conventional test kits are more sensitive (or accurate) in measuring changes in the calcium concentration than changes of the alkalinity from Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef

 

[Reef.]

I don't know where this idea of "more accurate kits of one or the other" came from. It has nothing to do with the dosage regulator choice.

From your own site, this is a direct quote…

The corresponding parameter only needs to be monitored periodically. We recommend using Calcium as the dosage regulator, as conventional test kits are more sensitive (or accurate) in measuring changes in the calcium concentration than changes of the alkalinity from Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef.

Tropic Marin | Aquarium | Produktinformationen

Tropic Mairn - The aquatic life science company. Wir stellen hochwertige Salze, Additive und Wassertests vorwiegend für Meerwasseraquarien her. Korallen, Fische und Wirbellose in Ihrem Aquarium fühlen sich mit unseren Produkten wohl.

www.tropic-marin-smartinfo.com

 

[Quietman]

Commented this thread before somewhere but after using AFR for over 3 years (never used anything else) still very happy with product.

Running a mostly softie tank, I really don't need to monitor or keep track of Alk or Ca all that often as my tank just isn't that demanding. What I like about AFR is when I notice Alk drop 8.5 I throw in a few mils (not closely measured anymore as I know where the line should be on the Bettix) to bring it backup. Easy-peazy. All the major/minor elements stay in line with one product. Again, this if for my specific circumstance - low Ca/Mg uptake but some. After no water changes for months and very little SW removal as I don't run a skimmer all the parameters from my ICP test are spot on. It also seems a bit forgiving on over/under dosing. Suspect it's how the Alk is generated over time but not a chemist. Anyway, really couldn't be happier with the product.

FWIW - The tank used to have higher demand still used AFR (before DIY/powder version), but much more dose to result measuring and testing back then. If I stuck with SPS (and if I go back to high demand) I will probably look at the AFR powders but for now, not really worth it to me. A liter will last me for months (much longer than my next free shipping order from a reefing vendor).

 

[Lou Ekus]

that was my thinking of the real reason but on their site they say the reason is…The corresponding parameter only needs to be monitored periodically. We recommend using Calcium as the dosage regulator, as conventional test kits are more sensitive (or accurate) in measuring changes in the calcium concentration than changes of the alkalinity from Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef

I stand corrected @Reef. What I was responding to was that you had originally said "Yes you are correct, looking more into it, apparently it’s because calcium test kits are more reliable? (Not in my experience they are far less accurate), they say you can use either but to adjust based on calcium." And I took that to mean "in general" not specifically related to the alkalinity release from AFR. In fact, I still stand by my reasoning about the alkalinity being used in greater proportion in most reef tanks in the US. So the Ca is a more effective dosage regulating indicator.
Also, if we look at this on a very technical level, a large portion of the alkalinity resulting from addition of AFR, tends to go directly to the coral polyps and not show up in the water column. In consideration of that, if you are using the alkalinity as the indicator, you might put more AFR in trying to raise the alkalinity, when the corals are still getting what they need, just not "decreasing " alkalinity in the water column.
For all of these reasons, I still prefer using Ca as the indicator for the AFR dosage.
However, at the end of the day, it is somewhat personal preference depending on how you particular system runs. Either one can work given the correct circumstances. My comments are directed toward first time users to try to foster simplicity and success in most cases.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Reef.]

I stand corrected @Reef. What I was responding to was that you had originally said "Yes you are correct, looking more into it, apparently it’s because calcium test kits are more reliable? (Not in my experience they are far less accurate), they say you can use either but to adjust based on calcium." And I took that to mean "in general" not specifically related to the alkalinity release from AFR. In fact, I still stand by my reasoning about the alkalinity being used in greater proportion in most reef tanks in the US. So the Ca is a more effective dosage regulating indicator.
Also, if we look at this on a very technical level, a large portion of the alkalinity resulting from addition of AFR, tends to go directly to the coral polyps and not show up in the water column. In consideration of that, if you are using the alkalinity as the indicator, you might put more AFR in trying to raise the alkalinity, when the corals are still getting what they need, just not "decreasing " alkalinity in the water column.
For all of these reasons, I still prefer using Ca as the indicator for the AFR dosage.
However, at the end of the day, it is somewhat personal preference depending on how you particular system runs. Either one can work given the correct circumstances. My comments are directed toward first time users to try to foster simplicity and success in most cases.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Thanks for the reply, I wasn’t trying to be a smart butt (well maybe a little) as I use AFR, I just have not found a calcium test I think is accurate enough to use to regulate AFR dosing, I feel if I were to use calcium my alk would fluctuate far too much.

 

[DeputyDog95]

Is there a graph or chart that shows what the corresponding Ca should be in relation to a particular dkh? For instance, if you're dosing enough to maintain 8.5 dkh, what should your Ca end up being using AFR?

It's a pretty good value if you buy the large powder containers.

Has anyone ICP tested and if so, how were your trace elements?

 

[areefer01]

It's a pretty good value if you buy the large powder containers.

1600g container is the the largest today. Hobbyist will have to decide what that threshold will be as it relates to daily dose vs container cost over time. My threshold is between 100 - 120 ml daily.

Largest container is 1600 gram
$75 US est
1600 g = 10 liters
10000 ml / 100 ml daily dosing = 100 days
3.6 months per 1600 g container
If I move to 120 ml/day I would be around 3 months
$300 - 375 in TM AFR year (estimated)

So that is my rough math and my threshold. Once that is crossed I can probably say while I like it and think it is great it would be the wrong tool for the job. Backup plan would be to go back to ESV 2 part and TM C product. Bummer is that I would need 3 dosing heads whereas I'm using 1 now.

These are sort of fuzzy match hobbyist should do when looking at products.

Has anyone ICP tested and if so, how were your trace elements?

You are probably already aware that ICP tests are, well, still falling in the skeptical bucket. Sort of like iodine and UV. That being said I do send off a ICP test every 4 months or so. I am partial to ATI and I use it as an outside source looking in. With the skeptical hat on I compare past to present results then cross check with my automated tests and manual tests using the water I collected for the ICP.

Trident does a 1200 Alk, Ca, and Mg test. I'll pull watch at the same time and test Alk, Nitrate, and Phosphate. When results come back I'll cross check. So far everything matches. I then pull up the graphs / history and look for trends. Lastly I look at the current report and do a review and call it the day.

TL DR - all in all TM AFR is a great product. Tropic Marin releases the liquid, then DIY recipe to make it more affordable. Then made the powder. Would be nice if they have enough supply to make a larger container for those with higher demand systems.

All the best!

 

[youcallmenny1]

@Lou Ekus I was hoping to get a few things cleared up regarding my transition on to AFR. I switched to AFR from BRS 2-part 2.5 weeks ago. Things have been much happier in my tank but I've been seeing climbing alkalinity this entire time. I started at ~35mL/day dosing on a 180g system. This was based upon the instructions suggesting 5mL/day per 26 gallons of volume. My Alk has climbed from the desired 8.1dKh up to 9.5dKh while the calcium is hovering a bit low at between 400-420ppm. I have steadily been dropping the dosing and am only dosing ~18mL day as of today. I've been having to perform water changes to keep my alk down and periodically dosing Balling A as per the instructions to keep calcium up. Is this going to level out? It's been kind of crazy having the alk insistently climbing like this and my dosing seems very low for a system this large compared to what I've seen from a lot of other people.

My other concern is I have a 3g container that I store my solution in. It was uniformly yellow/brown after mixing it but every week or so the yellow/brown seems to settle in to the bottom 1/3rd of the container while the top 2/3rd's of the solution becomes clear. Is this a concern? Does this need to continually be mixed up? I worry it is settling and the darker colored part is more concentrated and thus effecting dosing.

 

[Lou Ekus]

@Lou Ekus I was hoping to get a few things cleared up regarding my transition on to AFR. I switched to AFR from BRS 2-part 2.5 weeks ago. Things have been much happier in my tank but I've been seeing climbing alkalinity this entire time. I started at ~35mL/day dosing on a 180g system. This was based upon the instructions suggesting 5mL/day per 26 gallons of volume. My Alk has climbed from the desired 8.1dKh up to 9.5dKh while the calcium is hovering a bit low at between 400-420ppm. I have steadily been dropping the dosing and am only dosing ~18mL day as of today. I've been having to perform water changes to keep my alk down and periodically dosing Balling A as per the instructions to keep calcium up. Is this going to level out? It's been kind of crazy having the alk insistently climbing like this and my dosing seems very low for a system this large compared to what I've seen from a lot of other people.

My other concern is I have a 3g container that I store my solution in. It was uniformly yellow/brown after mixing it but every week or so the yellow/brown seems to settle in to the bottom 1/3rd of the container while the top 2/3rd's of the solution becomes clear. Is this a concern? Does this need to continually be mixed up? I worry it is settling and the darker colored part is more concentrated and thus effecting dosing.

In your particular case, I would recommend using the alkalinity as the regulating concentration for the AFR dose. Then supplement the extra needed calcium with the Balling Part A just as you are doing. This method will get your alkalinity to be more stabile and allow you to put as much calcium in as in needed. The stability of the alkalinity is very important. Actually more important than the stability of the calcium.
The answer to the question of whether this will ever "level out" is more a function of your system than it is of the AFR components. If the system is using more calcium than the corresponding biologic calcification is using, then no, it will stay like this. But in my opinion, that scenario is extremely unlikely. The converse is often true. But not this way. So I am going to "predict" that this will in fact "even out". But only time will tell.

I'm not sure exactly what to say about your other concern. Almost always, the AFR solution, once fully dissolved, is extremely stable and does not "settle" in the usual sense. There is certainly the possibility to see certain oxidation or bacterial or algae growth in very long term storage. Maybe that is what you are seeing? I would clean the mixing and storage containers very well before your next mixing of the AFR and see if you experience a similar issue. In the meantime, if you can think to do it, it couldn't hurt anything to give this solution a stir once in a while. You may not see this again after a good cleaning of the equipment. If you do, please message me again and I will try to help further.

 

[youcallmenny1]

In your particular case, I would recommend using the alkalinity as the regulating concentration for the AFR dose. Then supplement the extra needed calcium with the Balling Part A just as you are doing. This method will get your alkalinity to be more stabile and allow you to put as much calcium in as in needed. The stability of the alkalinity is very important. Actually more important than the stability of the calcium.
The answer to the question of whether this will ever "level out" is more a function of your system than it is of the AFR components. If the system is using more calcium than the corresponding biologic calcification is using, then no, it will stay like this. But in my opinion, that scenario is extremely unlikely. The converse is often true. But not this way. So I am going to "predict" that this will in fact "even out". But only time will tell.

I'm not sure exactly what to say about your other concern. Almost always, the AFR solution, once fully dissolved, is extremely stable and does not "settle" in the usual sense. There is certainly the possibility to see certain oxidation or bacterial or algae growth in very long term storage. Maybe that is what you are seeing? I would clean the mixing and storage containers very well before your next mixing of the AFR and see if you experience a similar issue. In the meantime, if you can think to do it, it couldn't hurt anything to give this solution a stir once in a while. You may not see this again after a good cleaning of the equipment. If you do, please message me again and I will try to help further.

Thank you Lou! You're a credit to Tropic Marin and this hobby. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I'll continue to monitor and adjust accordingly using alkalinity as the regulating measurement, I'm glad I'm on the right track. I just want to say though that regardless of the transitional fluctuations, my coral have been much, much happier then they were!

 

[ReefingIsMyTherapy]

@Lou Ekus I was wondering if you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts about water changes while using All-for-reef. I understand that AFR supplements trace elements, but I don't know if that's enough to stop doing WC and instead do ICP tests periodically, and tweak what's needed based on the results.

It'd also be great to hear from others to learn on the approach that you've followed. Did you stop doing WCs once you started dosing AFR, or do you keep doing regular WCs?

Thanks!

 

[areefer01]

It'd also be great to hear from others to learn on the approach that you've followed. Did you stop doing WCs once you started dosing AFR, or do you keep doing regular WCs?

Thanks!

I still do water changes. About 20% every 3 weeks or so. I do not run a tight schedule but it is safe to say I'm at about 3 weeks or so. Consider it something like Hawaii time.

 

[Lou Ekus]

@Lou Ekus I was wondering if you can spare a few minutes of your time to share your thoughts about water changes while using All-for-reef. I understand that AFR supplements trace elements, but I don't know if that's enough to stop doing WC and instead do ICP tests periodically, and tweak what's needed based on the results.

It'd also be great to hear from others to learn on the approach that you've followed. Did you stop doing WCs once you started dosing AFR, or do you keep doing regular WCs?

Thanks!

My opinion on water changes may differ from some. In fact, if you ask 12 people what they think of water changes, you will probably get 15 different answers!

Mine is this... I don't believe that ICP results, trace element concentrations and nutrient concentrations, are the ONLY reason to do water changes. Always, 100% of the time, on my systems, whenever a water change was done, the animals all looked happier the next day! Even when I could find NO apparent measurable difference between the pre and post water change water. I have a theory, of course one that cannot be backed up yet by some concrete scientific explanation, that doing a water change is a lot like giving your corals a "breadth of fresh air". I believe there are actual physical factors, that we cannot yet measure, that come into play when you have added new, clean, freshly made salt water to a closed system that the animals have been living in. I can't explain this 100%. But I watched it happen time after time with NO variation. There are still many things in reef keeping that we cannot fully explain. I believe this is one of them.

So I am a fan of periodic water changes. I am not one of these folks who thinks you need to do 10-20% strictly, every 2 to 4 weeks under penalty of torture! But I do believe that a "button" that can be pushed, that ALWAYS makes your animals look happier, should be pushed once in a while. They are telling that by the way they respond!

I have probably said a number of things that will be jumped on in this post. So I will say this... this is just my opinion and the advice that I have given, with much success, for many years. If you want to use a different approach, go ahead, it will probably work great. But you asked, so I'm tellin' !!!

 

[areefer01]

I have probably said a number of things that will be jumped on in this post. So I will say this... this is just my opinion and the advice that I have given, with much success, for many years. If you want to use a different approach, go ahead, it will probably work great. But you asked, so I'm tellin' !!!

I would hope hobbyist don't jump on the post. You gave your theory and why. That is what the forums are supposed to be about. A reason as to why you believe or why you have that theory. I will say I believe similar. After every water change I see a difference in the display. A lot of polyp extension and fluffy. It is just different.

I also don't have anything that backs it up other than the currents of the ocean always bring in freshness. And a water change in home aquaria is that freshness.

Hope your day is going well.

 

[brmc1985]

180g set up October 2020. Only used AFR with minor maintenance doses of alk or calc. I don’t do regular water changes but do replace if I vacuum the sump. I also use TM salt because I assume it uses the same source of materials for consistency. Latest test. Only low on these everything else tested within range without dosing anything else. I run chaeto which might explain the numbers.

 

[Megability]

Okay everyone, @Bulk Reef Supply, hold my beer, my time has come.

So I’ve been dosing all for reef for over 8 months now. I’ve gone through multiple bottles. I switched from BRS 3 part. (It’s not 2 part, I don’t care who you are, it needs the magnesium to be balanced in high demand situations. Especially high demand sps nano)

The original post about the brown stuff, yes I’ve bought bottles on my LFS shelf that may have been in the same place for months. There is some brown/red (what ever color you see). I shake the bottle a couple mins, poof, no more settled on the bottom.

Yes there are also some “floating” particles you can see in the bottle. Haven’t seen a problem from them, and I use every last drop from EVERY bottle.

And to be fair, I dose by hand twice every day, so I “swirl” the bottle around before pouring it into my measuring cup to dose it. I love being hands on with my tank every day when I get home from work, but that’s me. I guess I understand some people want to not touch their tanks... I mean, I don’t put my hands actually into my tank very often, but I do put my hands all over the outside constantly with feeding, dosing, and glass/equipment cleanings.

Yes, I use a Kamoer X1 doser when I go on vacation. I set it up usually a week prior to going to monitor it and dial it in. Haven’t had issues with that. If it’s a really long vacation my tank sitter knows what they’re doing. I understand not everyone has that, but believe me, someone you trust can be trained by you for what you want them to look at.

So as to address the fixed numbers you get “stuck at” with using this product. So my tank has stabilized as follows,
Calcium: ~420-440
Alkalinity: ~8.8-9.3
Magnesium:~1420-1440
Now, the reason the numbers I’ve given you are split is because over the last 7 months my tank has been very stable and never gone outside of this window. You have to understand that as coral grows, the rate that elements are used in your tank is not linear and will always change. It’s this thinking that has worked for me. Constant alkalinity monitoring has become all I’ve needed and the calcium and magnesium are always in that range. Alkalinity moves around a lot day to day so as I’ve said, I test alkalinity almost daily.

I have been doing 20%(~5gallons) weekly water changes with Tropic Marin Pro-Reef since I started the tank. Also have been making my own RODI water since then. I’m kind of picky how my water changes are done, the water is mixed for MINIMUM 24 hours before I use it. I almost always make the water for the next change the day after the water change, allowing that new water to mix for almost a week. I ONLY match my salinity, alkalinity, and temperatures. I bump the alkalinity with soda ash around an hour before the water change.

Now, I understand this was all very long winded and can seem like way too much effort/time. But once you’ve developed a rhythm with the animals you’re caring for, it’s nothing.

I want to thank BRS again for featuring my tank on their first episode of #BRStvReacts.

I want to thank @Lou Ekus for always being there for others who use this and all other great TM products. I will continue to use them forever on all of my reef aquariums.


If you want to skip past all that jargon,

It’s great stuff. My tank is very stable.
Oh look how pretty.

29 gallon Biocube dosing 25-28ml daily

Tank started 3-10-19.

Oh, and I started reefing 11-10-18...

Happy Reefing!!

Awesome post, thanks and well done

 

[DerpFish]

So I'm looking at various dosing pumps, trying to find one with enough heads to dose the various potions I've been trying out (Fusion 1 and Fusion 2, Ions (for magnesium), Vibrance (for iodide), and maybe even the Pax Bellum Magic Nitrate potion. Then I see Tropic Marin has an all-in-one product, namely, All-For-Reef, which includes "calcium, magnesium, strontium, and carbonate hardness elements, but also other less common elements like iodine, bromine, fluorine, selenium, molybdenum, & vanadium." So I'm thinking this is too good to be true! Given that you can use one potion for all these components (with just a single-head dosing pump), why would you NOT use this product in place of the other individual products??

It definitely does what it says it will do. The only downside I've noticed is that it doesn't give the ph boost that some other dosing solutions do such as kalkwasser or Triton. Once I'm done with my bottle of all for reef I will be switching to the Triton 4 part calc, alk, mag, and trace because I need that ph boost. If ph isn't an issue for you though, the all for reef is much more convenient.