Urgent!! Do I have ich or velvet?

[125mph]

Short version and long version:

Short version: I have a regal angel and a purple tang that have been twitching their heads, scratching their bodies and has very very very small white spots on their body.. the white spots are so small its hard to see without close observation. I thought it was ich and started hypo over the weekend but now I think it may be velvet, and I might use copper instead.. pictures below, tell me what it its?

Long version: I had an ich outbreak two months ago. I moved all fish into two QT tanks (a 29g and a 20g) and did TTM.. It appeared to be successful.. DT has been in fallow for about 10 weeks now. Last Tuesday, I got two fish from divers den, a potters and a melanurus wrasse. I trust DD a lot and thought I would just quarantine these guys with some of the current fish too, and then put them all in the DT when it was time. So I set up a 40G QT tank, moved the fish from the 29g to it, and put the two new fish in there too. In the 40G is a regal angel, purple tang, two clowns and the two new fish. About 1 day after that, I started noticing my regal angel and purple tang scratching... Since then, its progressively gotten worse and they breath heavy, twitching their head a lot, and scratching a lot. The other fish all appear normal including the new fish. I thought maybe the stress of the tank move (from 29G to 40G) and/or the new fish could have triggered the ich outbreak and assumed the TTM was not successful in eradication. At that time, I saw no evidence of ich (no spots). But instead of doing TTM this time, I was going to try hypo. Over the weekend, I took that 40G tank to 1.009. The regal and purple are still scratching and breathing heavy, but now I can see the spots. It looks very fine unlike the ich experience I've had before. Now I think maybe the new fish brought in velvet? Could this really be velvet? All the fish are eating aggressively including the regal and purple tang. How could velvet develop on the regal and purple within 24 hours, is that possible? And if it is velvet, I thought that parasite kills very fast? Should I abandon hypo and go to copper? Keep in mind the new fish have no signs of infection at all.

Pictures below. The only spots on the regal that can be seen is on the tail with very small fine white spots. On the purple tang, the side of his body has the white spots but its very very fine too. Almost like dust... sometimes I look at him and you think he has no spots then you look again and you can see it.. Its that small.

 

[125mph]

If I'm doing hypo and keep assuming its ich, how long do I keep doing it before the spots go away... that way if it doesnt go away I know its not ich?...

And if I continue this path with hypo and assuming its velvet, are the fish at risk since hypo doesn't kill velvet? I read velvet kills fish very fasy.. I'm tempted to taking salinity back to 1.025 and doing copper... I wanted to avoid copper because I read angels don't do well with copper and I'd rather not suppress all their appetites.

 

[CarrieB]

Since you have been through ick before and it doesn't look the same, I think you should trust your own judgement and assume it's velvet. Especially since velvet can kill so quickly.

The new fish are probably carriers and are just not showing symptoms.

@Humblefish @melypr1985

 

[125mph]

Should I raise salinity to 1.025 and then start copper, or raise salinity while starting copper too. Everything I read about velvet talks about how it kills so fast.. and I know I have to go slow for the salinity increase... not sure if enough time?

 

[pugcrush]

Just throwing this out there since one is an angel & not all fish show the affects. Have you ruled out flukes?

 

[125mph]

Just throwing this out there since one is an angel & not all fish show the affects. Have you ruled out flukes?

Ya definitely not flukes. First thing I did was use prazipro to rule out flukes.. It had no affect on the twitching. I think going into hypo should have killed the flukes too, right?

 

[Humblefish]

Since you have been through ick before and it doesn't look the same, I think you should trust your own judgement and assume it's velvet. Especially since velvet can kill so quickly.

+1 What I see on the PT definitely looks like velvet. I would perform this protocol on all fish ASAP: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

 

[Maritimer]

The real pros have already been paged, but I'd say that looks like velvet to me - more, and smaller, dusty white spots than I'd expect to see with ich.

Read Humblefish's excellent treatise on the subject: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/ and move quickly - the only advice I can offer.

~Bruce, who recently experienced the swift danger and sorrow that is velvet.

Edit ... aaand, he's already on the case!

 

[domination2580]

You can see a lot on the pros tang. It does look like velvet. But could be ich still. I would get salinity back to 1.025 amd then stay with copper. Either way it will take care of ich amd velvet. What you could do is a rally bath before you start copper treatment. @4FordFamily for the angel...I think your best bet would be coppersafe but slowly raise the levels to therapeutic levels of 1.5 to 2.

 

[125mph]

You can see a lot on the pros tang. It does look like velvet. But could be ich still. I would get salinity back to 1.025 amd then stay with copper. Either way it will take care of ich amd velvet. What you could do is a rally bath before you start copper treatment. @4FordFamily for the angel...I think your best bet would be coppersafe but slowly raise the levels to therapeutic levels of 1.5 to 2.

Thanks a lot, I will use copper on these...

But I'm in big trouble.. everything I read says raising salnity takes 1+ week to go from 1.009 to 1.025.. How do I do this in time before the velvet kills them? Can I do it in 1-2 days? Maybe I can raise it to 1.019 and then start cooper while raising it slightly over the next week afterwards? I read low salinity is bad for copper because the low PH causes copper to go more toxic.

 

[Humblefish]

But I'm in big trouble.. everything I read says raising salnity takes 1+ week to go from 1.009 to 1.025.. How do I do this in time before the velvet kills them? Can I do it in 1-2 days? Maybe I can raise it to 1.019 and then start cooper while raising it slightly over the next week afterwards? I read low salinity is bad for copper because the low PH causes copper to go more toxic.

This is why I hate hypo; because if you suddenly realize its velvet, then you have this quagmire on your hands.

It's a bit of a risk, but slowly start raising SG no more than 0.001 per hour. (Do small WCs using saltier water.) Simultaneously start adding very small amounts of copper to the water. Once you hit 1.019, you should be OK to go full copper.

 

[4FordFamily]

You can see a lot on the pros tang. It does look like velvet. But could be ich still. I would get salinity back to 1.025 amd then stay with copper. Either way it will take care of ich amd velvet. What you could do is a rally bath before you start copper treatment. @4FordFamily for the angel...I think your best bet would be coppersafe but slowly raise the levels to therapeutic levels of 1.5 to 2.

Agree that's velvet, and Regal do fine in copper for 60 days or less typically if increased slowly. Unfortunately with velvet you don't have time for slow increases.

Make every day count, since the clock is ticking on how long they can handle copper. I've had them last as long as 90 days but it was because I was lazy and I had to start over because I didn't test daily and it got below therapeutic levels. So test daily and ensure it never drops below 2.0 ppm if you use coppersafe.

 

[melypr1985]

I agree with velvet as well.

 

[Voltaire81]

This is why I hate hypo; because if you suddenly realize its velvet, then you have this quagmire on your hands.

It's a bit of a risk, but slowly start raising SG no more than 0.001 per hour. (Do small WCs using saltier water.) Simultaneously start adding very small amounts of copper to the water. Once you hit 1.019, you should be OK to go full copper.

@Humblefish - If the OP can somehow get their hands on CP, wouldnt it work just fine in low salinity?

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish - If the OP can somehow get their hands on CP, wouldnt it work just fine in low salinity?

The lowest SG I've ever used CP in was 1.015. So, I can't 100% say it would be fine in lower SG than that.

 

[125mph]

Thanks all! I am raising salinity as we speak, hope it doesnt take too long.

I just did a freshwater dip on the tang and the angel.. The tang freaked out a bit and was reaming himself on the glass, so he's a little bruised up... but the regal was perfectly calm. After the dip, all the white spots that I could see are gone on both fish. Hopefully that killed most of the velvet and give them enough time for copper to set in.

 

[Reefahholic]

Looks like Velvet. Better treat quick!

 

[jeff williams]

+1 What I see on the PT definitely looks like velvet. I would perform this protocol on all fish ASAP: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/velvet-amyloodinium-ocellatum.217570/#post-2499437

Hey humblefish lm curious is at what your looking at on th PT ? Is it the spots and I guess patching on his lower body going up to his tail ?

 

[Humblefish]

Hey humblefish lm curious is at what your looking at on th PT ? Is it the spots and I guess patching on his lower body going up to his tail ?

On the PT I can see tiny white dots on the dorsal fin and the rear of the lateral line.

On the angel I can use tiny white dots on the tail fin.

 

[salty150]

Why couldn't you do it in hypo...?

And use Ruby Reef Rally...?