Uronema becoming big problem these days? (Aside from chromis)

[Reefahholic]

I overdosed a bi-color angel with Cupramine Copper one time. That was the 1st and last issue I had with Copper. You have to ramp up and you need a reliable tester or kit.

I've had good luck with Chloroquine Phosphate as well. However, I did kill a blue regal tang trying to find out for sure if CP was really contraindicated for that fish or if it was just BS. I concluded that CP will indeed kill a blue regal tang on about the 4 day mark. At day 3 they start to tail spin....

 

[Reefahholic]

General Cure already has Praziquantel in it. So I'd just use API General Cure vs Prazipro.

 

[ReefWithCare]

I overdosed a bi-color angel with Cupramine Copper one time. That was the 1st and last issue I had with Copper. You have to ramp up and you need a reliable tester or kit.

I've had good luck with Chloroquine Phosphate as well. However, I did kill a blue regal tang trying to find out for sure if CP was really contraindicated for that fish or if it was just crap. I concluded that CP will indeed kill a blue regal tang on about the 4 day mark. At day 3 they start to tail spin....

Where do you get your CP? It sucks getting CP when you can’t get a vet script [emoji24]

 

[Reefahholic]

Where do you get your CP? It sucks getting CP when you can’t get a vet script [emoji24]

I got a crap load from a fellow reefer at one point. He had a vet prescription and got a massive amount, but I think the shelf life is only a few years. I can't remember.

I do have a couple doctors I work with and one I know in our hobby that will call in medications straight to my CVS pharmacy. I treat a lot of fish and also treat anemones with Septra DS (Bactrim) and Ciprofloxacin. So i'm constantly getting meds called in.

I do wish there was a good place to get pharm grade CP. I'm sure some of the boys know a place.

 

[Reefahholic]

Look at the size of this bottle!

 

[4FordFamily]

CP is good stuff

 

[Reefahholic]

CP is good stuff

I like to use it with Velvet since there's no ramp period.

 

[ReefWithCare]

I like to use it with Velvet since there's no ramp period.

Wait you are in Texas?!? Hook me up —- no vet Austin will write a script [emoji24][emoji24][emoji24]

 

[brwaldbaum]

...but your methods are a bit flawed. Plain and simple. These things are already established and have been for years. It's not even up for debate. You need to get on track with the rest of us and do it right.

That moment when R2R became RC.

 

[Humblefish]

The more chemicals we throw at the fish to prevent illness, the more illnesses we encounter. We're doing something wrong .

No. Forty-five minute bath in 200ppm formalin, followed by 5 minute freshwater/peroxide dip, and then "plop." (My butterfly had a red mark on his side when I bought him, so he also got antibiotics for 3 days.)

In my opinion, 1000's of needless fish deaths start with the conviction that "YOU MUST USE COPPER!".

So, you're not against using all "chemicals" on fish. Just copper??

 

[Ppoeschl]

How long have you worked at QM?

Not sure how you could possibly know that. That’s a pretty definitive claim.

Metro does a good job, it is one way to treat them internally and externally.

Lol how would I work for QM when I live 2000 miles away from QM? I know the industry. I've worked a long time in it. I've had uronema come from literally every wholesaler, collector, transshipper, etc. Including several of the "good ones" claimed in this thread. This is on a completely clean QT as well. Kind of arrogant and snarky to claim I worked for a wholesaler...

 

[Ppoeschl]

Why in the world would you suggest that comparison? 200ppm of any type of copper is 100 times the proper dosage. Specifically ionic copper it would be 400 times the proper dosage. Copper sulfate pentahydrate would be 1000 times the proper dosage. Of course that would be toxic.

Have you tried copper using a proper test kit like the Hanna checker? I lose very few fish that are treated in copper. You have 4 fish and you are going to contradict people who have treated hundreds?

There is an alternative to copper called chloroquine phosphate. (CP) that works on "most" species.

Did you miss the point that this thread was created to try to help others and STOP unnecessary fish loss?

The point is you claimed it is much more harsh, yet biologically speaking it is tolerated a lot better at higher dosages than copper.

 

[4FordFamily]

Lol how would I work for QM when I live 2000 miles away from QM? I know the industry. I've worked a long time in it. I've had uronema come from literally every wholesaler, collector, transshipper, etc. Including several of the "good ones" claimed in this thread. This is on a completely clean QT as well. Kind of arrogant and snarky to claim I worked for a wholesaler...

With all due respect, your responses were a bit arrogant and snarky in my thread.

As previously stated, I can’t speak nearly as much about other wholesalers I can simply state that it’s common in QM as of the last 6-12 months.

Perhaps it is more common there, perhaps not -- I don’t have a large enough sample size from other sources to make that claim confidently. I do suspect the entire distribution system is in bad shape.

 

[brwaldbaum]

So, you're not against using all "chemicals" on fish. Just copper??

Correct. I think a lot of qt wipeouts start with prophylactic copper.

 

[4FordFamily]

The point is you claimed it is much more harsh, yet biologically speaking it is tolerated a lot better at higher dosages than copper.

I’d like to know more about this. Anecdotal experiences with sample size utilized for your assessment, studies, etc. I am genuinely interested, no “snarkiness” intended.

Ionic copper has seemed a bit more harsh than chelated copper. My experience over the past several years leads me to believe most copper related deaths have actually been ammonia, poor 02 (meds particularly if mixed consume oxygen), and gross overdosing of copper due to CopperSafe (the most commonly used copper for years) ranging from 2.0 to 5.5PPM depending on bottle if you follow the instructions. I won’t buy this product anymore. The testing methods until the Hanna Checker (@HotRocks originally tested it and Hanna confirmed it was as accurate as his testing) were difficult for most, and we have found they were off in many applications as well. These two factors led to double the copper concentration necessary or worse in quarantine for many (us included in some cases).

1.75PPM copper power works phenomenally. Wrasse, roughly dozen large angels, a dozen or more dwarf angels, two dozen tangs, and many other fish have done well in it.

The purpose of forums, or at least my presence in the fish disease forum is to help others maintain healthy fish and stop the unnecessary deaths plaguing the hobby. Sharing experiences is critical.

 

[4FordFamily]

Correct. I think a lot of qt wipeouts start with prophylactic copper.

Well hundreds of fish disagree with you, as do those that quarantine the most. @Humblefish has a fish quarantining business.

I agree that overdosing (very common as we have discovered), low oxygen (common with meds particularly mixed meds), and ammonia (most common in a new quarantine) are killers, and that is what we’ve worked tirelessly to help with.

Take the copper discussion somewhere else. Start your own discussion. At least the QM comments are relevant to my thread topic. There’s a whole thread about “ich management vs ich eradication” you can visit too.

I’d like to get back to the topic of uronema and it’s prevalence and a bit about sources that seem to be sending fish with it and other disease.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/c...instruments-high-range-copper-checker.368943/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ich-eradication-vs-ich-management.188775/

 

[Humblefish]

Correct. I think a lot of qt wipeouts start with prophylactic copper.

I think a lot of QT wipeouts stem from overdosing copper. The information found in the links below was written specifically to address that problem:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/coppe...truments-high-range-copper-checker-hi702.454/

Some fish cannot tolerate copper, others cannot tolerate formalin. Many times it comes down to an individual thing rather than a genus/species thing. I.E. We both go to the doctor with the same illness, are prescribed the same medication; My body handles the medication just fine, but yours has a negative reaction to it.

A 45 min formalin bath + freshwater/peroxide dip will probably eliminate most "surface" parasites + worms on a fish. Does it get them all? What happens when 1 trophont survives, drops off and begins the process of reproducing in your small glass box?? The point of followup copper (or Chloroquine) treatment is to ensure the fish is shielded from reinfection and thus 100% parasite free upon entering the DT. It also should be noted that formalin/formaldehyde is a known carcinogen, so even if you aren't concerned about your fish getting cancer the human performing the bath should wear rubber gloves, face mask, etc.

 

[4FordFamily]

I’d like to direct Copper discussion traffic elsewhere so we can keep this thread on topic for other readers here at R2R. Thanks.

@Ppoeschl I’d love to discuss your findings asked if you a few posts ago privately or on another thread.

 

[saltyhog]

The point is you claimed it is much more harsh, yet biologically speaking it is tolerated a lot better at higher dosages than copper.

I run in to this complete misunderstanding all the time. If you want to compare toxicity you have use therapeutically similar doses! If compound A has to be dosed at 100 ppm to be effective and it is toxic at 500ppm, it is no less safe than compound B that has to be dosed at 1000 ppm and is toxic at 1500 ppm. By your statement compound A would be 3 times as toxic when in fact it is over 3 times less toxic.

You can't compare on a mg per mg basis. That's like my patients saying 50 mg of HCTZ is more potent than 10 mg of amlodipine....which patently not true.

 

[LovesDogs_CatsRokay]

On a happy note ... my anthias made it through the night and are still doing great! They just devoured some metro medicated food, and they have brown poo. A couple questions about metro since I’ve never used it before. Is it possible to overdose it? The water is dosed with it too, will it affect the results of my api ammonia test kit? And can I use prime with it if I need to?