We are all suckers!

[Doctorgori]

I just can’t with this take. Everyone is always so pro capitalism and always complaining about jobs being shipped overseas and saying we should be buying ‘made in America’ (I realize that not everyone here is America, but you get my point), but then when a company does manufacture their product in the US (and pays their employees a decent wage with benefits, and honors their warranty, uses quality parts, etc), AND makes a profit (because capitalism), you complain about it.

And with regard to the quality and profit margins of various LED lights, there’s just a lot wrong with the OP’s assertions. First, they are not the same LEDs, not the same drivers, not the same cooling mechanisms (fans/heat sinks), not the same lenses, and not the same build quality. 1 or 0.25 watt LEDs cost much less than 3 or 5 watt LEDs. LEDs from Cree or Osram (or some of the other high quality manufacturers) cost more, but are of much higher quality, spectrum, and intensity than generic off brand LEDs, generic LEDs are not even remotely comparable. There are plenty of quality, budget friendly lights out there, but when it comes to a lot of the cheap Ali express/Amazon, knock-off, black box lights, they are not of the same quality. Many of them will grow corals, but the quality, safety, longevity, aesthetics, and the coloration and growth you’ll get out of your corals might not be comparable to that of higher quality lights. And this is to say nothing of the working conditions of the people who make cheap electronics or the environmental hazards from the production of cheap electronics.

I want to be very clear that I am not against buying cheaper lights or cheaper electronics, if that’s the budget you have or if you’re comfortable with the trade-offs of lower quality lights, by all means… But pretending that there is no difference between higher and lower end LEDs is just that, pretending.

true, there are geopolitical factors that pass through savings in products from different parts of the world, environmental cost savings being a safe bet.
Also true is when we tend to have manufacturing prejudices where we will tend to pay more for made in “X” country vs. “Y” …. the “Made in Japan” revolution comes to mind here

 

[Wasabiroot]

The engineering of some lights may also be more intense, such as kessil style lights compared to seemingly more simple designs like orphek or reef breeders

Absolutely; a quick search on comparable products are pretty much limited to very specific uses. Not many LEDS you can purchase have the optical aspects that a Kessil fixture does. A lot of similar products on Amazon with cheap manufacturing are much more diffuse sources of light at that wattage.

 

[JimmyV]

The engineering of some lights may also be more intense, such as kessil style lights compared to seemingly more simple designs like orphek or reef breeders

Not 600 to 1000 dollars worth for one light that's only 16 x 8.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Does anyone else feel like we are all getting ripped off buy reef lighting manufacturers??
I mean really! It doesn’t cost the company any more money to produce the spectrum LED’s that we require vs the white LED’s you can buy in a shop light for instance!
I picked up two of these 24”x16” lights with a decent design and full of LED’s from front to back and it cost $99 each!
All it would take is instead of all white LED’s if there where blues mixed in it, it would be a great reef light!
Now I know there’s gonna be a bunch of lighting experts chiming in with their two cents saying “this cost more or that cost more, the LEDs are different they’re more expensive”
I’m not buying any of it! It would be a very minimal increase to do what we require for reefs versus what they do for a shop lights!
The fact that we all spend top dollar on these lights nowadays is just ridiculous!
$1000 per light, in comparison to the size shop light I got for $99.

Cant say ripped off but rather we have fallen victim to fixtures that maybe. . . MAYBE cost under $200 to manufacture and are listed at $800-$1000
Once a manufacturer sell units at lets say $850, company B and C will get into the market and charge similar price because consumers are buying 2-4 at a time without complaint
Suckers we're not but rather are consumers in a hobby whereas we dont have many alternative options and have to succumb to such pricing.
I dont think its an issue of inflation but rather a hobby where its noted that light and flow are of importance and then once acquired, we are faced with rediculous prices for coral and fish

 

[bruno3047]

They are providing a product that you like very much, but you can’t make yourself. Hence, the high prices.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Does anyone else feel like we are all getting ripped off buy reef lighting manufacturers??

Not just reef lighting manufacturers, but skimmers too.
Its just an acrylic bottle with a pump and a straw attached.
For such a simple device, these acrylic bottles cost as much as our lights!

As a niche market, we get ripped off everyday in this hobby. Lighting, skimmers and corals too.
Corals are the worst, and the latest trend in this industry that get taken advantage of to jack up prices.

Coral prices exceed inflation by 1000%. And ironically, it is the age when we can all propagate simple zoas. Although we have increased supply, why do corals, lighting and skimmers increased1000% above inflation rate?

 

[bruno3047]

It’s really not that hard. Anyone who needs help wiring their own LED system, just ask right here. Or PM me if you don’t want to do it on this thread.

I’ll be showing, with pics, my DIY LED/T5 hybrid lighting system on my build thread. Here’s the link.

Build Thread - Completely DIY 315 build

Just wanted to start my build thread, even though I still have a ways to go before it’s complete. I’ll start with a FTS of my current tank. A recently converted FOWLR 125. This was a Petsmart Black Friday Special that I bought for $349, no tax, at the local Petsmart. This is what I bought...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I just can’t with this take. Everyone is always so pro capitalism and always complaining about jobs being shipped overseas and saying we should be buying ‘made in America’ (I realize that not everyone here is America, but you get my point), but then when a company does manufacture their product in the US (and pays their employees a decent wage with benefits, and honors their warranty, uses quality parts, etc), AND makes a profit (because capitalism), you complain about it.

And with regard to the quality and profit margins of various LED lights, there’s just a lot wrong with the OP’s assertions. First, they are not the same LEDs, not the same drivers, not the same cooling mechanisms (fans/heat sinks), not the same lenses, and not the same build quality. 1 or 0.25 watt LEDs cost much less than 3 or 5 watt LEDs. LEDs from Cree or Osram (or some of the other high quality manufacturers) cost more, but are of much higher quality, spectrum, and intensity than generic off brand LEDs, generic LEDs are not even remotely comparable. There are plenty of quality, budget friendly lights out there, but when it comes to a lot of the cheap Ali express/Amazon, knock-off, black box lights, they are not of the same quality. Many of them will grow corals, but the quality, safety, longevity, aesthetics, and the coloration and growth you’ll get out of your corals might not be comparable to that of higher quality lights. And this is to say nothing of the working conditions of the people who make cheap electronics or the environmental hazards from the production of cheap electronics.

I want to be very clear that I am not against buying cheaper lights or cheaper electronics, if that’s the budget you have or if you’re comfortable with the trade-offs of lower quality lights, by all means… But pretending that there is no difference between higher and lower end LEDs is just that, pretending.

But ... But.... I want to complain about something!!!!!

CREE led and meanwhile drivers for the win!

 

[bruno3047]

Not just reef lighting manufacturers, but skimmers too.
Its just an acrylic bottle with a pump and a straw attached.
For such a simple device, these acrylic bottles cost as much as our lights!

As a niche market, we get ripped off everyday in this hobby. Lighting, skimmers and corals too.
Corals are the worst, and the latest trend in this industry that get taken advantage of to jack up prices.

Coral prices exceed inflation by 1000%. And ironically, it is the age when we can all propagate simple zoas. Although we have increased supply, why do corals, lighting and skimmers increased1000% above inflation rate?

Corals are more expensive because the countries that harvest them started charging more money because of the “sustainability” costs. History is littered with countries that pilfered their natural resources and ended up dirt poor because they didn’t practice sustainability.

 

[Derrick0580]

I would much rather spend $500 one time on a light that lasts because it is well engineered and made from quality parts than buy 5 - $100 lights that stop working every year or so. I am extremely bad about researching something to death before pulling the trigger on an expensive purchase. I’ve made impulse buys in the past and it has come to bite me in the butt many times such as the $1600 lg atmos sound bar that is collecting dust in the corner of my storage room because the wireless subwoofer disconnects at random and had I only researched it I would have seen the hundreds of bad reviews vs the handful of good ones. 99.9% of the time you get what you pay for!

 

[JimmyV]

Corals are more expensive because the countries that harvest them started charging more money because of the “sustainability” costs. History is littered with countries that pilfered their natural resources and ended up dirt poor because they didn’t

I would much rather spend $500 one time on a light that lasts because it is well engineered and made from quality parts than buy 5 - $100 lights that stop working every year or so. I am extremely bad about researching something to death before pulling the trigger on an expensive purchase. I’ve made impulse buys in the past and it has come to bite me in the butt many times such as the $1600 lg atmos sound bar that is collecting dust in the corner of my storage room because the wireless subwoofer disconnects at random and had I only researched it I would have seen the hundreds of bad reviews vs the handful of good ones. 99.9% of the time you get what you pay for!

My 165watt black boxes have been shinning for 7 years not a problem with the 3 of them .

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Not just reef lighting manufacturers, but skimmers too.
Its just an acrylic bottle with a pump and a straw attached.
For such a simple device, these acrylic bottles cost as much as our lights!

As a niche market, we get ripped off everyday in this hobby. Lighting, skimmers and corals too.
Corals are the worst, and the latest trend in this industry that get taken advantage of to jack up prices.

Coral prices exceed inflation by 1000%. And ironically, it is the age when we can all propagate simple zoas. Although we have increased supply, why do corals, lighting and skimmers increased1000% above inflation rate?

Yes, it is that easy.

Go ahead and make your own acrylic bottle, not stealing anyone else's design or measurements. Same with the pump, adjustment arms and so on. Is it going to work as well as a refoctopus 2000??

Do we think the companies that have been doing this forever have kind of figured it out??

I don't know the correct neck pitch to velocity for optimum surface fracturing. I doubt anybody in this thread does.


They do all the trial and error for you, and will charge you for that service, which you don't have to use.

Ripped off is playing a victim card.

Nobody's taking advantage of us when we decide to enter our credit card information or hand over a pile of greenbacks for a service or product we want. Not need. This is a hobby not our own life-saving equipment.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Corals are more expensive because the countries that harvest them started charging more money because of the “sustainability” costs. History is littered with countries that pilfered their natural resources and ended up dirt poor because they didn’t practice sustainability.

What? No. Most of the corals for sale are artificially farmed "in-house".
Do you think all the "Grand-Master-Krak" single polyp zoas that cost $150 come from the wild??

I guarantee you NONE of them are from the wild. At this point, they are in giant tubs in coral vendors facilities. Growing like weeds. You know zoas. They are weeds.

 

[Derrick0580]

My 165watt black boxes have been shinning for 7 years not a problem with the 3 of them .

Well you got lucky then. I’m sure there are plenty out there that didn’t get the same result you did. But also with your 165 dollar black box light you don’t get the extremely controlability that I have with my 3 xr15 g5 blues. If you are happy then it’s money well spent.

 

[bruno3047]

What? No. Most of the corals for sale are artificially farmed "in-house".
Do you think all the "Grand-Master-Krak" single polyp zoas that cost $150 come from the wild??

I guarantee you NONE of them are from the wild. At this point, they are in giant tubs in coral vendors facilities. Growing like weeds. You know zoas. They are weeds.

 

[ReeferSamster]

Yes, it is that easy.

Go ahead and make your own acrylic bottle, not stealing anyone else's design or measurements. Same with the pump, adjustment arms and so on. Is it going to work as well as a refoctopus 2000??

Do we think the companies that have been doing this forever have kind of figured it out??

I don't know the correct neck pitch to velocity for optimum surface fracturing. I doubt anybody in this thread does.


They do all the trial and error for you, and will charge you for that service, which you don't have to use.

Ripped off is playing a victim card.

Nobody's taking advantage of us when we decide to enter our credit card information or hand over a pile of greenbacks for a service or product we want. Not need. This is a hobby not our own life-saving equipment.

No you miss my point. Obviously we buy things because we don't have the time or resources to build them. Focus on the bigger picture. Not about unrelated obvious axioms. Yes. We buy things because we don't want to build them. What is the relevance of your basic statements describing the oldest business model of mankind have to do with my message?

But since you used the specific example of the protein skimmer, lets use that.
Look at LED lighting and compare that technology with a protein skimmer.

Do you think the amount of labor, R&D and production is the same as LED lighting tunable to wavelengths of light. Compared to an acrylic bottle with a water pump. Look at the complexities of what you are paying for. What do you think the profit margins are for the reef octopus 2000? Its literally a bottle and a water pump.

Why do protein skimmers cost as much as LED's?

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

My 165watt black boxes have been shinning for 7 years not a problem with the 3 of them .

Those 165w black boxes that were patent jacked by Mars Hydro out of Shenzhen China, do work pretty well. NGL

 

[bruno3047]

What? No. Most of the corals for sale are artificially farmed "in-house".
Do you think all the "Grand-Master-Krak" single polyp zoas that cost $150 come from the wild??

I guarantee you NONE of them are from the wild. At this point, they are in giant tubs in coral vendors facilities. Growing like weeds. You know zoas. They are weeds.

Anything? Too funny.

“We’re very heavily regulated”

 

[Woodyman]

If you are happy then it’s money well spent.

Best quote of the thread @Derrick0580 !!!

I don't care how much the next guy spends on his tank, whether it's more or less than me. I just care that I'm happy with the result. My tank and spending choices do not effect the next guy, as his don't effect mine.

Let me buy the salt and lights I want in peace...

 

[ReeferSamster]

Anything? Too funny.

You quoted me talking about zoas. You bring in a video about acropora colonies?
Acropora colonies ALWAYS cost alot even back in the day before you started reefing.

Show me the video of the huge shipment of the "Grand Master Krak" zoas that sell for $150 per polyp.
Justify to me the cost of a single zoanthid polyp and the profit margins.

Same as arguing about the cost of manufacturing that I wouldn't do personally, to justify a protein skimmer price.
Both times irrelevant.