Well this is no good... (warning! wp-25 discussion ahead)

[PaulKreider]

China can and has been doing whatever they want with patents for years. China has copies cars to the smallest bolt, they just slap a new name on it and call it theirs. A pump for fish tanks is going to get little to no notice compared to many other law suits. As stated before, they will just change the name of the product and it will start all over again. china could care less about any American company and patent laws. It was bound to happen eventually. Tunze and ecotech charging a fortune for their products really dosnt surprise me that finally a company came out with a replica. Honestly a plastic impeller pump with a plastic housing and a small motor does not cost anywhere near $700 to produce, and it dosnt take a genious to design an "out of tank" impeller, simple physics. I for one am against such monopolys taking advantage over the average reefer by charing such a huge amount for such a simple component. Look at hydor, $30 for a pump that puts out an equal amount of gph, the only difference is that hydor runs off ac current while eco and tunze run off DC current.

 

[k2parkstar]

China can and has been doing whatever they want with patents for years. China has copies cars to the smallest bolt, they just slap a new name on it and call it theirs. A pump for fish tanks is going to get little to no notice compared to many other law suits. As stated before, they will just change the name of the product and it will start all over again. china could care less about any American company and patent laws. It was bound to happen eventually. Tunze and ecotech charging a fortune for their products really dosnt surprise me that finally a company came out with a replica. Honestly a plastic impeller pump with a plastic housing and a small motor does not cost anywhere near $700 to produce, and it dosnt take a genious to design an "out of tank" impeller, simple physics. I for one am against such monopolys taking advantage over the average reefer by charing such a huge amount for such a simple component. Look at hydor, $30 for a pump that puts out an equal amount of gph, the only difference is that hydor runs off ac current while eco and tunze run off DC current.

Tunze and ecotech are far from a monopoly. In fact I'd be willing to bet there are 2-1 korelia's out there compared to the other 2. Do you call Ferrari a monopoly just cause its expensive?

 

[Engloid]

I dont know but... were ecotech and tunze the only companies making dc pumps prior to this? Maybe thats what he means.

I do see his point though. With such huge profit margins it really invites "knockoffs." Nobody makes knockoffs of cheap purses. I know it doesnt make it right to infringe on a copyright though. Who knows...maybe it is part of their plan...copy a product to get their name brand out, then change appearance to bypass the patent, and continue selling under the same name.

 

[dougers31]

Hydor does make dc controllable pumps. Just sayin....

 

[Willz]

Well it's your own fault for supporting Chinese labor, copied from American (?) ingenuity.

Um... Isn't Tunze a German based company? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Tunze the company sending the supposed "cease and desist" letters? Tunze is about as American as BMW or Mercedes or Siemens. Now excuse me while I carry on with my all American glockenspiel practice.

Tunze and ecotech are far from a monopoly. In fact I'd be willing to bet there are 2-1 korelia's out there compared to the other 2. Do you call Ferrari a monopoly just cause its expensive?

Tunze and Ecotech are price fixing though. The reason that they haven't complained about Korallia's is that they truly are cheap garbage. This copycat outrage only came up because a company got it right: cheap, powerful, and quiet. That is why the big boys are whining. They know that they will have to lower their prices to remain competitive. Trust busting at it's finest.

 

[CoryC]

i like how everyone apparently knows what it costs to manufacture a tunze or mp40, or what they should sell it at to be able to turn even a small profit. Where Tunze powerheads are made is irrelevant as they are made to LAST from superior parts with great customer service. You're not going to find that out for a while, but it means you're going to go through probably 3 jaebo pumps to one Tunze. And spend more money. I've seen these pumps a lot, i know how they are built.It's anything but quality, and they are not always quiet.

 

[Willz]

i like how everyone apparently knows what it costs to manufacture a tunze or mp40, or what they should sell it at to be able to turn even a small profit. Where Tunze powerheads are made is irrelevant as they are made to LAST from superior parts with great customer service. You're not going to find that out for a while, but it means you're going to go through probably 3 jaebo pumps to one Tunze. And spend more money. I've seen these pumps a lot, i know how they are built.It's anything but quality, and they are not always quiet.

Point conceded. We don't know how long these pumps will last. However, if they last more than 1 year they will pay for themselves vs. Tunze. You are speculating that the Jebao pumps will burn up in a short time and spending more on Tunze in anticipation of that. I am speculating that the Jebao pumps will last longer and spending less in anticipation of that. Either way this line of reasoning is based on speculation and only time will tell.

I don't buy the whole "Tunze is made from superior parts" storyline. It's a water pump. I own both and there isn't that much difference. Hence Tunze sending the alledged "cease and desist" letter. The tangible difference is price.

 

[skinz78]

I plan on getting a WP40 and giving it a try. I figure why not, even if it lasts one year and then kaput. Heck I've had snails get into the wet side of a MP40 and wipe it out, that alone is almost the same cost of one of the WP40's.

 

[lovemyreef]

I currently have 2 mp40's and 2 wp40's running. I can say that the wp's move way more water and are just as quite if not more silent than the MP's.
I will leave the MP's in my display as they are less intrusive inside the tank. The wp's are solid and for the price you can't touch them for water movement!

 

[PaulKreider]

"Superior" plastic parts...? Your kidding right? Im sure you think there's a difference in "flight" grade aluminum. Its plastic its probably recycled from water bottles. And the Ferrari comparison is irrelevant, obviously your getting top notch in a Ferrari, somthing that a cheaper company, Honda for example couldnt do. Where as the wp40s were ableto out perform at a much lower price. So maybe when Honda comes out with a supercar at a family price point that will berelivent. All in all im not a fan of Chinese copy right infringement but its not going to stop anytime soon.

 

[bct15]

"Superior" plastic parts...? Your kidding right? Im sure you think there's a difference in "flight" grade aluminum. Its plastic its probably recycled from water bottles. And the Ferrari comparison is irrelevant, obviously your getting top notch in a Ferrari, somthing that a cheaper company, Honda for example couldnt do. Where as the wp40s were ableto out perform at a much lower price. So maybe when Honda comes out with a supercar at a family price point that will berelivent. All in all im not a fan of Chinese copy right infringement but its not going to stop anytime soon.

Just want to clear up the materials statements made here, not saying anything about the materials used in production of any product because I don't know what are used...just want to clear up the term "aluminum" and "plastic"

Just to clear things up for you, plastic is a term used by the public to describe all moldable polymers...there are literally thousands of different types of polymers out there that are all called plastic by people who don't know any better, but they are all completely different . You can have two different plastics that have completely different microstructure, melting temperatures and material properties one could even be a thermoset and one a thermoplastic . A cheaply made polymer material will be loaded with defects and the material may not be the most suite or the application but is selected because of the cost savings. I'm not saying that is what is happening here, just want to clear up that there is a superior plastic component for each and every operating condition.

For more info you can start here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic

Also, there is thousands of different aluminum alloys and different grades. The alloying elements determine the properties and the grades are idicative of the quality or processing techniques used to bring the alloy to it's final state. Saying two shafts are aluminum and are the same is incorrect, one could be made of 2024 and one could be made of 6065, which are completely different. For more info on aluminum alloys start with this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy

The term plastic and aluminum terms are used as generalized statements by the public, but all plastics and aluminums are not the same.


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP

 

[Jcouch]

WillZ, both Mercedes and BMW have plants here in the United States building SUV vehicles to help keep cost down for the consumer. The reason being the US purchases far more SUV vehicles than anywhere else in the world. Not the best analogy to compare to Tunze. Also, where did you read/see that ecotech is whining about this pump? I can not see any reason for them to be upset about this. Ecotech marine largest competition is Tunze. Why would they complain about Tunze loosing business? I personally have the ecotech mp10wes power head and the main reason for me purchasing this pump was the fact the power cable does not have to go inside my tank. Nit wuite the same as the jebao wp pumps. I plan on picking up another mp10 this weekend for that same reason.

 

[Engloid]

Hydor does make dc controllable pumps. Just sayin....

Didn't know that. I won't get into it here though. This thread has deviated plenty enough already.

i like how everyone apparently knows what it costs to manufacture a tunze or mp40, or what they should sell it at to be able to turn even a small profit. Where Tunze powerheads are made is irrelevant as they are made to LAST from superior parts with great customer service. You're not going to find that out for a while, but it means you're going to go through probably 3 jaebo pumps to one Tunze. And spend more money. I've seen these pumps a lot, i know how they are built.It's anything but quality, and they are not always quiet.

I'd bet they have a pretty big profit margin, wouldn't you? I don't think these have been out long enough that anybody can prove that the Tunze is made with superior parts. Keep in mind that good customer service can often give the illusion that a product has few problems or failures. For example, I once did some consulting for a company that would scour the internet for any problems with their product, on message forums, facebook, and anywhere else. When they found a post complaining about a defect or failure, they would tell the person that they would send a new product out, at no charge, if they removed the post from the internet. They could afford to do that because they had a 300% markup on the product that was imported from China. Likewise, if Jebao doesn't do this, you will find more problems online than with a company that scours the net to get bad comments removed.

In other words, IF....
Jebao doesn't scour the net and try to get negative posts removed by giving out products...
and...
Tunze does...

What you find is a lot of negative posts about Jebao, and a lot of posts about Tunze having great support (because they're giving away free stuff). Therefore, looking on the internet for posts about the two products' dependability can give a really skewed representation of which is really more dependable.

WillZ, both Mercedes and BMW have plants here in the United States building SUV vehicles to help keep cost down for the consumer. The reason being the US purchases far more SUV vehicles than anywhere else in the world. Not the best analogy to compare to Tunze. Also, where did you read/see that ecotech is whining about this pump? I can not see any reason for them to be upset about this. Ecotech marine largest competition is Tunze. Why would they complain about Tunze loosing business?

...because Ecotech is probably losing some MARKET SHARE also. I'm sure they don't mind if Tunze loses market share, but they'd like to get it, rather than Jebao get it. They'd rather lose market share to Tunze than to Jebao because Tunze is helping to keep the products' pricing (and profit margins) up. They'd probably much rather compete with Tunze than Ecotech.

 

[1.0reef]

So are people still whining and arguing and boasting whatever?
Meh, probably.

 

[Jcouch]

Didn't know that. I won't get into it here though. This thread has deviated plenty enough already.


I'd bet they have a pretty big profit margin, wouldn't you? I don't think these have been out long enough that anybody can prove that the Tunze is made with superior parts. Keep in mind that good customer service can often give the illusion that a product has few problems or failures. For example, I once did some consulting for a company that would scour the internet for any problems with their product, on message forums, facebook, and anywhere else. When they found a post complaining about a defect or failure, they would tell the person that they would send a new product out, at no charge, if they removed the post from the internet. They could afford to do that because they had a 300% markup on the product that was imported from China. Likewise, if Jebao doesn't do this, you will find more problems online than with a company that scours the net to get bad comments removed.

In other words, IF....
Jebao doesn't scour the net and try to get negative posts removed by giving out products...
and...
Tunze does...

What you find is a lot of negative posts about Jebao, and a lot of posts about Tunze having great support (because they're giving away free stuff). Therefore, looking on the internet for posts about the two products' dependability can give a really skewed representation of which is really more dependable.


...because Ecotech is probably losing some MARKET SHARE also. I'm sure they don't mind if Tunze loses market share, but they'd like to get it, rather than Jebao get it. They'd rather lose market share to Tunze than to Jebao because Tunze is helping to keep the products' pricing (and profit margins) up. They'd probably much rather compete with Tunze than Ecotech.

Ecotech is not targeting people that want to pay $85 for a pump. Ecotech is after the consumer that is willing to dish out enough money to not have to mess with all the other bull crap. Most of the time someone willing to pay for the price of an ecotech wants not only the best, but the easiest to work with. Do you think ecotech cares that there is $200 led lights you can buy from china? Absolutely not. Why? Because they are not after the consumer paying $200 for a light. They want customers that will pay $900 for a light then $400 for a pump and a year down the road another $300 to upgrade.

 

[dougers31]

Agree 100%. You always, always get what you pay for. I bet half the people on here saying cheaper products are good for the consumer also complain about outsourcing, and the lack of jobs in America. Well it's your own fault for supporting Chinese labor, copied from American ingenuity.

Usually is true but I myself paid for a vortech mp10 and within 15 months was paying another $90 to replace a dry side that was approx 2-3 months past warranty Never buying one again after dealing with their customer service. You would think a $200+ pump would last at least 3 years or so....

 

[k2parkstar]

Usually is true but I myself paid for a vortech mp10 and within 15 months was paying another $90 to replace a dry side that was approx 2-3 months past warranty Never buying one again after dealing with their customer service. You would think a $200+ pump would last at least 3 years or so....

Yeah that sucks, I've had my MP10 for 2 years now running non stop. It's been great for me.

 

[dougers31]

Didn't know that. I won't get into it here though. This thread has deviated plenty enough already.
.

Ha! It's my thread so elaborate if you wish

Thanks to everyone's input so far. Some good discussion, even if it wanders here and there...

 

[Dsdaley77]

It's funny that in every single Jebao thread I see at least one or two people that have a WP and an MP (and/or a Tunze). Why is that funny..... Because I have yet to see an MP or Tunze come out on top. Instead I see the opposite result. Just something I noticed.

And for the "AUTO" people...... There's a huge difference between "made in....." And "assembled in......". Just saying, lets put things in context and use legitimate references and comparisons.


Sent Via the R2R Forum APP
So You Can
KEEP CALM AND REEF ON!!

 

[Diesel]

@ Jcouch, Just have to say that's right. I love my 5 MP40's even more and my Gen2 did very well for a while but the Pro's are in transit. I'll always stick with Ecotech. Why cause their customer service, quality of equipment and are a an AMERICAN company.