What are the root causes of Cyano?

[Jeferson Stutz]

Welcome to R2R! Great first post.

Why is molybdenum important?

Hi Dan,

Thanks for your hospitality. I don't know the particular reason for that, but this element in excess (more than 12 mgl) is one of the triggers for cyanobacteria. I've read a few academic articles and they mention about this.

Here's one of them.

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aslopubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com

Thanks!

Jeff Stutz - Brazil

 

[ZaneTer]

Does that imply that cyano is less likely to occur in a mature tank that does less water changes because the molybdenum would likely have been used up already?

 

[Dp916]

imbalance between Nitrates and Phosphates, in my experience cause red slime outbreak

 

[Jeferson Stutz]

Does that imply that cyano is less likely to occur in a mature tank that does less water changes because the molybdenum would likely have been used up already?

Theoretically yes. But as mentioned there are other factors.

 

[Jeferson Stutz]

imbalance between Nitrates and Phosphates, in my experience cause red slime outbreak

You’re right, but as said before there’s one more component. Carbonate.

Have you guys already see this table?

Basically if we try to stay in the yellow zone we will not pull the trigger for cyano.

When the 106:16:1 is out of range, mostly generated by high nitrate and low phosphate, the chances for cyano are very high. Also low carbonate Theoretically the simple fact of rise Carbonate and nitrate (if your phosphate is too low) cyano shall disappear.

I see many people trying to decrease PO4 but nitrate doesn’t decrease together. BOOM!

hope this helps.

Jeff

 

[Mortie31]

You’re right, but as said before there’s one more component. Carbonate.

Have you guys already see this table?

Basically if we try to stay in the yellow zone we will not pull the trigger for cyano.

When the 106:16:1 is out of range, mostly generated by high nitrate and low phosphate, the chances for cyano are very high. Also low carbonate Theoretically the simple fact of rise Carbonate and nitrate (if your phosphate is too low) cyano shall disappear.

I see many people trying to decrease PO4 but nitrate doesn’t decrease together. BOOM!

hope this helps.

Jeff

Can you please explain how the Redfield ratio which is a ratio of CNP in phytoplankton, can be reinterpreted in this manner? It is being used out of context in this manner.

 

[Jeferson Stutz]

Can you please explain how the Redfield ratio which is a ratio of CNP in phytoplankton, can be reinterpreted in this manner? It is being used out of context in this manner.

What I understand CNP is not related with phytoplankton only, is for the entire life.

The nitrogen cycle in reef tanks is more complicated than Nitrate measured with traditional test kits. After hours of hours of reading the best thing I did was make a Triton N-DOC test that graphically showed what we’re discussing here and why cyano was in my thank.

Likewise, Carbon and Alkalinity exist in more forms than have been measured in the past.
Collectively, these compounds feed the bacteria and algae that cause problems in reef tanks.

Please consider reading of this document, it’s self explanatory.

TRITON RATIO

Hope this helps,

Jeff

 

[purplereef]

What happens when have a little of both Cyano and Hair Algae?

 

[Mortie31]

What I understand CNP is not related with phytoplankton only, is for the entire life.

The nitrogen cycle in reef tanks is more complicated than Nitrate measured with traditional test kits. After hours of hours of reading the best thing I did was make a Triton N-DOC test that graphically showed what we’re discussing here and why cyano was in my thank.

Likewise, Carbon and Alkalinity exist in more forms than have been measured in the past.
Collectively, these compounds feed the bacteria and algae that cause problems in reef tanks.

Please consider reading of this document, it’s self explanatory.

TRITON RATIO

Hope this helps,

Jeff

I have read the entire triton rational as well, and have asked Eshan for further explanation, which he has declined. Unfortunately there is no proof that these ratios hold for all life forms, if you have this please share.
Triton simply seem to be adding to the confusion rather than supplying credible evidence to support there marketing schpeel, and this needs challenging at all levels, as to me it’s simply a marketing ploy. I asked them, “ this could be a very valuable breakthrough for reefers can you please provide supporting evidence of your claims so that the research can be scrutinised and peer reviewed.” They have declined, so I ask myself why would a company not share there “academic research” with the wider community if it was robust? It holds no product trade secrets or advantage to any rival manufacturer. So yet again it seems a company is trying to add to the confusion to sell products.
I hope I am wrong in this, but it’s not looking promising.

 

[Jeferson Stutz]

I have read the entire triton rational as well, and have asked Eshan for further explanation, which he has declined. Unfortunately there is no proof that these ratios hold for all life forms, if you have this please share.
Triton simply seem to be adding to the confusion rather than supplying credible evidence to support there marketing schpeel, and this needs challenging at all levels, as to me it’s simply a marketing ploy. I asked them, “ this could be a very valuable breakthrough for reefers can you please provide supporting evidence of your claims so that the research can be scrutinised and peer reviewed.” They have declined, so I ask myself why would a company not share there “academic research” with the wider community if it was robust? It holds no product trade secrets or advantage to any rival manufacturer. So yet again it seems a company is trying to add to the confusion to sell products.
I hope I am wrong in this, but it’s not looking promising.

I totally respect your insight, I cannot answer as academic research but I can answer by my practical experience, I completely eliminated the cyano adding phosphorus and as soon they become balanced as that simple table shows they never came back.

Thanks

 

[Mortie31]

I have read the entire triton rational as well, and have asked Eshan for further explanation, which he has declined. Unfortunately there is no proof that these ratios hold for all life forms, if you have this please share.
Triton simply seem to be adding to the confusion rather than supplying credible evidence to support there marketing schpeel, and this needs challenging at all levels, as to me it’s simply a marketing ploy. I asked them, “ this could be a very valuable breakthrough for reefers can you please provide supporting evidence of your claims so that the research can be scrutinised and peer reviewed.” They have declined, so I ask myself why would a company not share there “academic research” with the wider community if it was robust? It holds no product trade secrets or advantage to any rival manufacturer. So yet again it seems a company is trying to add to the confusion to sell products.
I hope I am wrong in this, but it’s not looking promising.

If you think deeper about triton N-DOC measuring it’s making suggestions/ recommendations based on the CNP ratio of your tank 1-2 weeks in arrears. Are these ratios stable for that long, of course not N maybe relatively stable if you have a stable mature filter system the efficiently works. P will vary considerably several times a day, from peeking post feeding then declining as it’s filtered out, this is repeated after every feed. I have no idea about C and how it’s effected but we’re adding organic carbon with every feed so intuition will tell us it should vary. So how possibly can there ever be a set ratio? It would need all 3 parameters to remain constantly at fixed values and in perfect relationship to each other. Which obviously isn’t possible. Hence redfield and triton ratios as pertaining to levels in our tank water are very misleading...

 

[Jeferson Stutz]

If you think deeper about triton N-DOC measuring it’s making suggestions/ recommendations based on the CNP ratio of your tank 1-2 weeks in arrears. Are these ratios stable for that long, of course not N maybe relatively stable if you have a stable mature filter system the efficiently works. P will vary considerably several times a day, from peeking post feeding then declining as it’s filtered out, this is repeated after every feed. I have no idea about C and how it’s effected but we’re adding organic carbon with every feed so intuition will tell us it should vary. So how possibly can there ever be a set ratio? It would need all 3 parameters to remain constantly at fixed values and in perfect relationship to each other. Which obviously isn’t possible. Hence redfield and triton ratios as pertaining to levels in our tank water are very misleading...

Don’t forget that N is not volatile as we think, the volatile portion are ionically tight to NH3, NO2 and NO3, right? Said that and when you collect the sample water and the same day test you NO3, once you have the N-DOC results, pit together NO3, total carbon and Phosphorus, I imagine the ratio is very possible to build.

Again I’m not chemistry, this to me seems to be very clear.

Thanks

 

[Mortie31]

I totally respect your insight, I cannot answer as academic research but I can answer by my practical experience, I completely eliminated the cyano adding phosphorus and as soon they become balanced as that simple table shows they never came back.

Thanks

Changing things in our tanks, affect lots of things and the problem is it’s difficult to prove what’s cause and effect, things/ levels change hourly and daily. How do you know your cyano wouldn’t have gone away on its own given a week or 2 more? Human nature always try’s to tell us the last change we made was responsible, but very few of us know enough to know the cascade effect of those changes.
Anyway I’m glad your cyano has gone, and I myself have had breakouts that have resolved on there own and there may well be some magic ratio, but until someone proves it, I’ll remain sceptical especially given the dynamic environment that is our tanks.

 

[ReefGeezer]

If I remember biology class correctly, the Redfield Ratio includes Carbon, does not apply across the board, and expresses the ratio in which a particular sample group uses C,N, & P. That ratio wasn't necessarily the ratio of bio-available nutrients present in the water column. In my experience, Cyano becomes a problem when dissolved organic compounds are elevated. Maybe these compounds contain the C, N, & P the bacteria need, whatever the ratio might be. While it is usually true that N and/or P are elevated when DOC is high, IMO, the root cause is the DOC.

 

[Mortie31]

Don’t forget that N is not volatile as we think, the volatile portion are ionically tight to NH3, NO2 and NO3, right? Said that and when you collect the sample water and the same day test you NO3, once you have the N-DOC results, pit together NO3, total carbon and Phosphorus, I imagine the ratio is very possible to build.

Again I’m not chemistry, this to me seems to be very clear.

Thanks

A ratio may possibly of been ascertained at the exact time of testing all of those parameters, If all 3 were done at the same time, but a short time after they will have changed especially your phosphorus as I said above the N chain maybe the most stable, but PO4 certainly isn’t try measuring yours immediately after feeding and then hourly until the next feed, and see how much it changes.

 

[Jeferson Stutz]

Changing things in our tanks, affect lots of things and the problem is it’s difficult to prove what’s cause and effect, things/ levels change hourly and daily. How do you know your cyano wouldn’t have gone away on its own given a week or 2 more? Human nature always try’s to tell us the last change we made was responsible, but very few of us know enough to know the cascade effect of those changes.
Anyway I’m glad your cyano has gone, and I myself have had breakouts that have resolved on there own and there may well be some magic ratio, but until someone proves it, I’ll remain sceptical especially given the dynamic environment that is our tanks.

When chemical salt, bacteria dosing, skimmer arrived to reef tankers the resistance was similar. We have to see to believe! I understand your point. But we use all them today and they works.

Nobody has proven man been in the moon but I believe them. Be skeptical is good to keep us beyond the extremism but the data and experience helps me keep me live.

I respect your thoughts.

 

[Mortie31]

When chemical salt, bacteria dosing, skimmer arrived to reef tankers the resistance was similar. We have to see to believe! I understand your point. But we use all them today and they works.

Nobody has proven man been in the moon but I believe them. Be skeptical is good to keep us beyond the extremism but the data and experience helps me keep me live.

I respect your thoughts.

This subject has been a mine field for 15 years or more, hence why these threads are constantly started, the trouble is there is no data on cyano and ratios, simply reading through this thread in its entirety will tell you it’s not as simple as change the ratios to this and cyano disappears... if that really worked these threads would of stopped years ago. The experiments Dan, Taricha and the guys are trying hopefully will help shed some light on this very frustrating but very important bacteria and what triggers it from being beneficial to being a pita... always good to discuss differing views and challenge each other

 

[BGrand]

Following for future reference. Hopefully will never need it but lets be honest.

 

[doodledreads]

I recently started to get my nutrients down; I used (still do) phosphate rx for phosphates and nopox for nitrates. Also installed an ATS. I am monitoring the nutrients via reefbot every other day. I started to get cyano right after a bacterial bloom (white stringy stuff) which might have driven the nitrates down to 0 (reefbot tested it at 0) as I probably over did the nopox. My phosphates were still very high at 0.5ish. I slowly reduced the nopox down to zero and am only relying on the ATS for now to bring the Nitrates back up to 0 > 5 > 10 > 15. My phosphates are now at around 0.04. Still have cyano mats - less in the morning, thick and dark red EOD.

I might get some porous media in the sump like the MarinePure and try adding a few beneficial bacteria blends that can compete with cyano, and slowly increase nopox.

I also think that flow doesn't really seem to be a major factor in cyano growth. I have two mp10s running at 40 - 60% in Reefcrest/Tidal/NTM on the opposite sides of the 21 gallon reefer nano cube. So, it is a moderate-high flow for my LPS-dom tank. Not saying slow flow is not an issue but it doesnt seem to be a major factor in cyano.

 

[brandon429]

it is a requirement that every ten pages someone posts a cyano cure work thread, showing application.
find a problem tank, implement the desired balances, post after pics.

ya'll race me to a new work thread + after pics. ill start checkn around. sourced new, from today all fresh work is ideal. mines gonna be some nano we cheat clean into perfection, real challenge= someone's huge dsb tank with a cyano challenge. that's the work thread gold. with no rip clean ability, I'm already mad at them lol they need a tuners approach...large tank curing is where the cred is

example of work thread...sell it then deliv

Substrate change

Okay so I haven't had much success lately with coral growth. It's been a good 7 months since I've had coral actually grow. I think I am having issues because of my substrate . It is crushed coral and over the time I feel like there's no real good clean up crew to take care of it. Is it hard to...

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