What is "Great Success"?

[MnFish1]

I have to admit I liked the beginning of this thread and the idea of it.

Folks do absurdly claim that very minor things are "great successes".

well - at least 20 pages out of >16,000 that do not ... JK. (kind of)

 

[JCM]

Here is the link for the Acanthurus Tangs:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Ich Management tank is a tank that has Ich present in the system. The goal is to build up a strong enough immune system the fish to keep Ich at bay and not effect the fish. Some fish can handle it, while other more sensitive fish (ex: Acanthurus Tangs, Butterflies, Anglefish to name a few) will succumb and not be able to fend it off.

-Zack

Thanks for the link! I appreciate that person's candor, but that was sad to read

 

[Newb73]

Here is the link for the Acanthurus Tangs:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/ich-and-acanthurus-tangs-years-of-experience-and-ich-management.106/

Ich Management tank is a tank that has Ich present in the system. The goal is to build up a strong enough immune system the fish to keep Ich at bay and not effect the fish. Some fish can handle it, while other more sensitive fish (ex: Acanthurus Tangs, Butterflies, Anglefish to name a few) will succumb and not be able to fend it off.

-Zack

False.

My achilles has no prob with it and he is housed with a rabbit and 3 other tangs.

Could be a strawman argument, but it is also real observational data.

 

[Zack K]

False.

My achilles has no prob with it and he us housed with a rabbit and 3 other tangs.

Could be a strawman argument, but it is also real observational data.

Hey @Newb73 I applaud your success. Unfortunately I think you have played the luck game and got all heathy fish or have just gotten extremely lucky. All us as hobbyists can do is read what others have done and put together an educated conclusion. By reading articles similar to the one in my original post, keeping fish like Acanthurus Tangs in an Ich Management system fails 98% of the time.

-Zack,

 

[Newb73]

Been in the hobby seriously since 1987.

Lucky for me I choose to expand my horizons and have different tanks with different methods, yet I do not feel the need to remind everyone at every opportunity. That is just me though.

Congrats, that puts us as contemporaries if you are counting from my first 55g in my bedroom.

You are still about 10 yrs behind me though if you count the 12 tanks we had in the basement and my parents side petshop buisness from the 70s.

I actually find such info about other users very insightful.

 

[Newb73]

Nope Paul you're wrong. I never saw your "beautiful tank full of SPS corals".
No one disparages your tank for it's uniqueness. One tank and method, perhaps you should show a little appreciation to another methods and stop standing on your pedestal of your 40+ year old tank.

Depends on what you define as "easy" and "full".

I find sps to be relatively easy in a mateur tank if you are really working it.

SPS and very few fish is one thing (I think Paul has a point)....i think most will agree that a mixed reef with lots of healthy SPS and lots of fish in conditions that LPS abd soft corals will also thrive in is much harder.

Yet I am not finding even that to be all that hard.

I am happy to show pics.

Do monti, blue torts, birds, and 4 or 5 other purple, blue and bright yellow sps with visible growth count?

How much growth do you need in the before and after shots before you count it?

Granted, i may need more time to meet your standard (if you need 6 to 10 inches and fully filled in wall to wall coral) but rest assured, it's coming and ill be here to share.

3 inches? A foot?

It isn't that its greatly difficult as much as it requires perserverance, money and time.

I only understand about 1/3rd some of RHF equation posts.....now that stuff can be "difficult"..[emoji12]

 

[Newb73]

Hey @Newb73 I applaud your success. Unfortunately I think you have played the luck game and got all heathy fish or have just gotten extremely lucky. All us as hobbyists can do is read what others have done and put together an educated conclusion. By reading articles similar to the one in my original post, keeping fish like Acanthurus Tangs in an Ich Management system fails 98% of the time.

-Zack,

That is a fair and reasonable response.

Probably a bit more than JUST luck.
1) Large (ish) tank 225
2) Up to 20,000 gph circ at times.
3) Sulfur denitrator
4) Ozone
5) Recently added a high output UV designed for a 450g tank and run it wil 3x the specified dwell time.
6)A LOT of substrate.
7) Continuous AWC 1.4% per day.

The reason i don't think it was just the luck of getting "healthy fish" is that both my Achilles and blue GOT ich.....and it slowed them down about as much as it would a trigger or damsel (ie....not at all).

I believe ich is still in my tank, i see the regal or achilles scratch about once every few weeks.

Biggest prob in my tank is that my achilles bulles rhe regal and sailfin at feeding time, the clowns defend a territory that is in the prime swimming lane and i have discovered my school of blue-green chromis aren't talking kindly to my new lyre tail (though they readily accepted the school of ignitusx3).. That and I am soon going to run out of room for more SPS corals unless i start pulling out LPS colonies and sellibg them.

In the interest of full disclosure, i am a miserable failure at "meat corals" except blasto which is darn near bullet proof.

I have tried and failed 3x at getting a copperband to survive my tanks, i had a rare "killer blue throat" that killed my anthias and took the eyes from a kole tang before jumping to his own death, yellow gobies vanish in my tanks as did an orchid dotty and my fav bicolor blenny so i am by no means claiming to be superreefer or anything close.

 

[Paul B]

This is Great Success. No, it is not my tank but a place in the Caribbean. I love this picture and for many years tried, (but of course failed) to create a seascape like this because I love natural and as years go by, I try harder and harder to get there.





I think here, many years ago my tank looked the most natural. Most people today would not like this because of the scarcity of corals and I don't think I had many, if any SPS. I collected that codium seaweed in the Atlantic but it only lives a few months in a tank then falls apart as it is a cold water plant. I liked the way encrusting corals and plants covered everything and the fish were very healthy, even the tangs. I think there was a sailfin and a hippo, maybe a naso but I forget. In those days not many people had SPS and I tried them but almost all of the time failed.
These were all very easy life forms to keep but I didn't care as I just wanted a natural, healthy tank.



For some reason I discovered that in my tank anyway I could keep soft corals, or gorgs, or leathers or SPS but when I tried to mix everything, one thing would prosper while the others would fail. I don't know, but I think it's the chemicals corals exude to ward off other corals from encroaching on their territory.

There were phases where SPS, specifically acropora would grow like crazy for some reason, but then my huge leathers would shrink and die.
I am talking over a period of years, not weeks. One year these things exploded and grew like weeds. My clown gobies spawned all over them every week and little by little killed them as their eggs cover all parts of the branches.

You can see her eggs here just to the right of the left gobi.






I feel we think of Great Success in too short a timespan as corals are immortal and if they live a few years that's a great thing. We may think so but we are wrong. A tank, any tank goes through cycles that can last years just like the sea.

I had phases where leathers and these guys grew as large as dinner plates. Then after a few years and in a few days, shrunk back and disappeared.



I certainly had the same problems that everyone today has but there was no information then. Now I realize that cycles happen constantly and that is the reason for all, or most of the tank crashes and people leaving the hobby.
Cycles in a new tank can last for weeks or months. Those cycles are hair algae, cyano,diatoms etc. Eventually those cycles last for a year or two and at those times we may be able to keep LPS or SPS, leathers, gorgs or flatworms.

All of a sudden a tank full of LPS dies back for no apparent reason and we think something is wrong with the water. The thing in the water is pheromones and toxins exuded by the corals when they detect other corals that they do not "like". We have little defense against this but we want to do something so we add things or try to remove things. There is no home test for these things so your Salfert test kit is useless. Coral toxins can kill an entire tank in a few days, nitrates, phosphates and pH will take much longer and we can remedy those things.

That's why so many posts say that "My parameters are perfect but eyerything died". It's not your fault.

Eventually, if you stick with it, those cycles will last longer and longer and you will barely notice them, but they will always happen and they happen in the sea over much longer time periods.

I first dove in Hawaii on my honeymoon in 1973 (or 74 I forget) I thought the diving was fantastic. There were many sharks, groupers and large fish.
I dove there again 3 years ago and was very disappointed. All the tangs were gone as almost all of the corals. The sand was crawling with Crown of Thorn starfish that eat corals. There was almost nothing left except for moray eels and Moorish Idols that graze on dying algae, sponges and mulm.
Turtles were very common due to the lack of sharks. It was a barron wasteland compared to similar waters on Tahiti.

Hawaii.


Tahiti on the other hand had so many sharks that it was hard to get in the water without jumping on one. You had to time your departure from the boat and jump right after a shark came by and before the next one came by.
Sharks are a sign of a healthy reef.


This is the same reef.



I think many of our problems are due to these cycles and there is nothing we can do about it but resist the urge to interfere with a cycle because IMO in doing so short circuits the process and makes it take longer or never complete causing more and more interference from us. A tank full of hair algae is of course ugly, but it is natural thing and when the algae exhausts whatever it is feeding on, will die making way for the next cycle. This is all part of the tank maturation process and will iron itself out. Chemicals to me are almost always a no no. But mechanical methods work better and don't mess up the cycle. Adding an algae scrubber will allow the cycle to complete on it's own as will manually removeing it. Cyano will also cause no harm as it is natural.

I feel many of us don't keep a tank long enough to get past these fast moving cycles which is why there are so many posts about battling something. A 4 or 5 year old tank is still a new tank and still working out the kinks. Tanks will get past that if we don't keep adding chemicals.
This is all just my opinion of course as I am not the God of fish tanks.

 

[Paul B]

Here is an example of a frogspawn or torch coral killing a montipora. They do this at night and only takes less than an hour.


Here is my tank probably in the 80s. OK, stop laughing.
This picture appeared in FAMA magazine. That leather grew up to the top of the water in no time. Then when corals became available and all those leathers died. I had them for a few years and then they just fell apart.



These also. I think coral toxins killed them. And they were huge,

 

[Zack K]

Excellent write up Paul. My question would be, what is that little guy in the very last picture? He sure is a cute little fella!

 

[JCM]

It's a clown goby, Gobiodon atrangulatus

 

[Zack K]

It's a clown goby, Gobiodon atrangulatus

Yea it’s a pale green one. Good catch.

 

[MnFish1]

I find sps to be relatively easy in a mateur tank if you are really working it.

Just curious - how do people that grow coral commercially (i.e. in tanks) do it. Of course you need a mature 'filter' but - Im not sure about the rest of the stuff you talk about in a 'mature tank'.

Probably a bit more than JUST luck.
1) Large (ish) tank 225
2) Up to 20,000 gph circ at times.
3) Sulfur denitrator
4) Ozone
5) Recently added a high output UV designed for a 450g tank and run it wil 3x the specified dwell time.
6)A LOT of substrate.
7) Continuous AWC 1.4% per day.

So - its not just nutrition, one also needs a high output UV and Ozone (Or you wouldn't be using them?). Curious why did you add the High output UV? Of course, as you know, the reason you dont see Ich in the ocean (often) is because the concentration of the parasites are so much lower as compared to infections that occur in tanks. The use of this much 'sterilizing' equipment is probably mimicking the low parasite concentration in the open reef (possibly)?

 

[MnFish1]

In my tank - I have no UV, no ozone. I have tangs, angelfish clownfish a couple anthias. Have SPS, LPS and some GSP and few mushrooms. I have a protein skimmer and an algae reactor, use carbon and bio pellets. Coral seems to grow well. I dont quarantine either fish or corals (but I only get them from 1 reliable local source) - that doesn't use copper. I haven't had any fish disease in a year (the last time I bought some online fish - wiped out the whole fish population - left the tank fallow for 2 months). Never see white spots, never see scratching. So - I dont see the difference in my 'system' to the other 'natural systems'. PS - I feed 2x.day some flake in the AM - and reef frenzy in the PM. Do perhaps 1 40 gallon water change every 2 weeks. Test Alk, CA once a week - dont check PO4 or Nitrate. I found I killed far more things (Corals) chasing numbers than I ever benefited anything in the tank.

 

[MnFish1]

It is also important, for such a natural system to never be quarantined as that is totally un-natural and defeats the entire purpose of a natural, immune tank.

What do you mean by this - just curious. Do you mean the fish/corals put into it? Because many fish stores, etc quarantine their stock - so whether the person buying the fish quarantines it or not - the place the fish was purchased has likely done some quarantining - no?

Also the bacteria that a fish eats is filtered through it's kidney, unlike us a fish makes much of it's immunity in it's kidney from the bacteria that it injests. (we tend to make kidney stones) Fish are very good at this because everything they eat and breathe is filled with living bacteria and pathogens as it eats living prey.

Everything we eat and breathe (unless its cooked) is also filled with living organisms (as is our skin, our mouths, and our digestive tract). I posted some time ago an article on fish immunity. Below is a quote from that article. In any case, Like "us" they have a thymus and spleen.

'The components of the innate immune response are divided into physical, cellular and humoral factors and include humoral and cellular receptor molecules that are soluble in plasma and other body fluids. The lymphoid organs found in fish include the thymus, spleen and kidney. Immunoglobulins are the principal components of the immune response against pathogenic organisms. Immunomodulatory products, including nucleotides, glucans and probiotics, are increasingly used in aquaculture production.'


Here is an interesting article on bacteria levels in 'reef tanks' vs natural reefs. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

 

[Paul B]

The people who grow corals commercially have no fish with them and most of them get natural sunlight. Thats how you easily grow SPS corals. The fish add pollutants in the water.

 

[Paul B]

What do you mean by this - just curious. Do you mean the fish/corals put into it? Because many fish stores, etc quarantine their stock - so whether the person buying the fish quarantines it or not - the place the fish was purchased has likely done some quarantining - no?

Everything we eat and breathe (unless its cooked) is also filled with living organisms (as is our skin, our mouths, and our digestive tract). I posted some time ago an article on fish immunity. Below is a quote from that article. In any case, Like "us" they have a thymus and spleen.

'The components of the innate immune response are divided into physical, cellular and humoral factors and include humoral and cellular receptor molecules that are soluble in plasma and other body fluids. The lymphoid organs found in fish include the thymus, spleen and kidney. Immunoglobulins are the principal components of the immune response against pathogenic organisms. Immunomodulatory products, including nucleotides, glucans and probiotics, are increasingly used in aquaculture production.'


Here is an interesting article on bacteria levels in 'reef tanks' vs natural reefs. https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

I mean, if we quarantine for 72 days which is the prescribed time frame, the fish may lose it's immunity that it has from the sea.
The stuff we normally eat and breathe is different from the bacteria and pathogens a fish needs to stay immune. We don't generally eat live prey any longer although at one time we did. I am sure we lost our ability to process all those pathogens with our modern diet which is why every time I go to Mexico I get sick, but the Mexican people don't. And in the Year I spent in Nam I took an anti Malaria pill every day,but the local people did not have to. It is also the reason our POWs in Nam got malaria. We have no natural immunity to it because we are never in contact with it

 

[DSC reef]

Depends on what you define as "easy" and "full".

I find sps to be relatively easy in a mateur tank if you are really working it.

SPS and very few fish is one thing (I think Paul has a point)....i think most will agree that a mixed reef with lots of healthy SPS and lots of fish in conditions that LPS abd soft corals will also thrive in is much harder.

Yet I am not finding even that to be all that hard.

I am happy to show pics.

Do monti, blue torts, birds, and 4 or 5 other purple, blue and bright yellow sps with visible growth count?

How much growth do you need in the before and after shots before you count it?

Granted, i may need more time to meet your standard (if you need 6 to 10 inches and fully filled in wall to wall coral) but rest assured, it's coming and ill be here to share.

3 inches? A foot?

It isn't that its greatly difficult as much as it requires perserverance, money and time.

I only understand about 1/3rd some of RHF equation posts.....now that stuff can be "difficult"..[emoji12]

Make sure you post the downfalls of those colonies when or if it happens. I read a lot of Paul's threads and I like his tank but appreciation of others methods is not a strong suit and clouded by sarcasm. Not taking anything away from you or Paul but growing SPS is "easy" up until a point you have a malfunction or chemistry swing that wipes out your colonies. I think success is in the eye of the beholder and respecting others methods and enjoying the hobby is part of it. I've never had a tank for 40 years, I've never had a colony a foot long but I don't think it makes me unsuccessful. I document my tank when it's running great and also report my mistakes and failures in hopes to help another reefer one day. To me that's success.

 

[Newb73]

Just curious - how do people that grow coral commercially (i.e. in tanks) do it. Of course you need a mature 'filter' but - Im not sure about the rest of the stuff you talk about in a 'mature tank'.



So - its not just nutrition, one also needs a high output UV and Ozone (Or you wouldn't be using them?). Curious why did you add the High output UV? Of course, as you know, the reason you dont see Ich in the ocean (often) is because the concentration of the parasites are so much lower as compared to infections that occur in tanks. The use of this much 'sterilizing' equipment is probably mimicking the low parasite concentration in the open reef (possibly)?

Agreed.

I added the UV at around 25 fish. The reasons were 1) It was on sale 2) I had a fair amount invested by then 3) Water clarity as i elected to run carbon only in my 90g except for periodic spot tx and 4) I wanted to add even more fish.

 

[Newb73]

In my tank - I have no UV, no ozone. I have tangs, angelfish clownfish a couple anthias. Have SPS, LPS and some GSP and few mushrooms. I have a protein skimmer and an algae reactor, use carbon and bio pellets. Coral seems to grow well. I dont quarantine either fish or corals (but I only get them from 1 reliable local source) - that doesn't use copper. I haven't had any fish disease in a year (the last time I bought some online fish - wiped out the whole fish population - left the tank fallow for 2 months). Never see white spots, never see scratching. So - I dont see the difference in my 'system' to the other 'natural systems'. PS - I feed 2x.day some flake in the AM - and reef frenzy in the PM. Do perhaps 1 40 gallon water change every 2 weeks. Test Alk, CA once a week - dont check PO4 or Nitrate. I found I killed far more things (Corals) chasing numbers than I ever benefited anything in the tank.

Same. About 80g a month in water changes.. No QT. When i am working, i will feed some times 4 to 6 times a day (about 2 wks a month). Rest of time they get a lunch and dinner via my wife who works at home.

I don't run carbon or biopellets but i do tx reef energy A/B and seachem Zoo and plank.

I feed frozen mysis, brine w infused spril, nori, pellers, reef chili, reef and fish frenzy, krill, seaweed extreme and even Apex. If mt tank doesn't have SOME nuisance algae, it slows growth and that INCLUDES some SPS.