What is "Great Success"?

[Newb73]

@Newb73 I already answered this question. In my post yesterday at 1:03 PM I posted a second post in which I made it clear my views about nutrition and immunity and Paul B's theory. Shortly thereafter I posted response to your critique of mine - and I was only pointing out that I had already said basically what you did about nutrition shortly before having read your critique.

One thing everyone should learn is that its very difficult to judge tone and meaning on these message boards. I don't want to have a *** for tat regurgitation of these messages - but quote the 2 below to illustrate this.

In my first post I stated "I have heard some one say that feeding a certain food stimulates or potentiates or maintains the immune system in fish with no evidence..."

You decided that this meant: "Immunity isn't related in any way to nutrition? That is your poignant argument? Except you are wrong."

Your impression of what I was saying was completely different than the message I was trying to make.

Fair enough. In my line of work, I am required to be a but OCD/Pedantic. Doesn't work so well in threads where I respond to an older post and newer posts already made. Totally my error.

ACTUALLY, thanks for the response. When something is my mistake i appreciate being called on it. Randy Farley does this all the time and i still look forward to his posts.

Okay back on topic, it actually seems we all agree, more or less.

 

[MnFish1]

We're clearly going to need a Tardis to finish this conversation.

AHAHAHHAHAHA - the conversation is finished. lol.

Learned immunity does indeed rely upon bacterial exposure. Mountains of scientific data to prove this also. Heck it is literally micro 101 in college. Unless you want to develop vaccine injections for fish that is......

Learned immunity does rely upon bacterial exposure. But - not every bacteria organisms are exposed to result in an immune response. (i.e. the concept of immune tolerance).

Here is what I think (using Ich as an example - forgetting velvet, etc etc etc) about immunology and nutrition and 'great success':

1. Nutrition is vital for a healthy fish and immune system.
2. Repeated exposure to strain A of Cryptocaryon will help precent infection with strain A of Cryptocaryon, as immunity starts dropping after 6 months.
3. Though a fish has immunity to strain A of Cryptocaryon, randomly trying to add strain B of cryptocaryon may result in the death of the fish. The same can be said about randomly adding other pathogens in an attempt to stimulate immunity.
4. Fish have microbiomes in their skin and intestines that help protect against invasion from foreign pathogens. If these microbiomes are altered by antibiotics, etc - replenishing them is likely beneficial.
5. Over time, the amount of bacteria that a tank can support (both within the animal and external to the animal)- (nutrients, substrate, out competition by other bacteria) will be present - adding more is not going to help. The fish, etc are exposed to 'plenty' of bacteria in an established tank. Adding different strains will likely result in the death of the new strains because the 'old ones' are established and will outcompete.
6. Bacteria can only 'help' the immune system if the immune system is exposed to the bacteria. Bacteria, etc that a fish swallows never sees the immune system unless it 'invades' the body (ie goes through the various mucosal defenses). Likewise, bacteria that is added to the tank is not going to go through the skin of the fish unless there is a injury. This is the reason that vaccines are given by injection (i.e. eating tetanus toxoid does not result in an immune response). The modified polio vaccine, though, which goes through the mucosa and the immune system 'sees' is given orally.
7. Great success is only defined by the individual, obtainable using any number of methods - depending on what you they are trying to achieve.

 

[Paul B]

Actually, I agree with much, but not all of this. You don't need to keep adding ich or bacteria. The ich parasite in a natural tank will keep living right along with the fish as long as we don't medicate with anything. Bacteria will also live for the same reason as long as we don't medicate or use Red Slime Remover, Prizapro, stump remover, insect killer etc. It is also important, for such a natural system to never be quarantined as that is totally un-natural and defeats the entire purpose of a natural, immune tank. Of course bacteria can be out competed with some other strain or be killed by a virus.
Also the bacteria that a fish eats is filtered through it's kidney, unlike us a fish makes much of it's immunity in it's kidney from the bacteria that it injests. (we tend to make kidney stones) Fish are very good at this because everything they eat and breathe is filled with living bacteria and pathogens as it eats living prey. Our modern digestive systems are sissies now due to processed foods and the lack of pathogens in our diet. I personally don't eat living bugs, squirrels, Mastodons, chickens, worms, fish or anything live except for clams and oysters. If I tried to eat a living buffalo or duck billed platypus I would probably croak because my system has no defenses against what is in their guts, besides I think duck billed platypusses are kind of cute.

 

[mcarroll]

(Sorry in advance about the length of quotes in here, but I promise I only quoted the relevant parts so all should be worth reading.....links are provided that will lead you to the whole article too.)

The same can be said about randomly adding other pathogens in an attempt to stimulate immunity.

Random, unrelated bugs, you're right. But...

Similar bugs CAN provoke an immune response that WILL apply to the target pathogen.
(I have a link on this but not finding it right now...)

Since the "treatment" in question has always been natural seawater along with live (or at least intact, unprocessed) foods, it could be reasonable to presume "similar" is in there.
(Thinking of the stats on the literally-astronomical # of microbes in 1mL of seawater.)

Bacteria can only 'help' the immune system if the immune system is exposed to the bacteria. Bacteria, etc that a fish swallows never sees the immune system unless it 'invades' the body (ie goes through the various mucosal defenses). Likewise, bacteria that is added to the tank is not going to go through the skin of the fish unless there is a injury.

Lactic acid bacteria vs. pathogens in the gastrointestinal tract of fish: A review has good info about mode of infection:

…before any infection can be established, pathogens must penetrate the primary barrier. In fish, the three major routes of infection are the skin, gills and gastrointestinal (GI) tract. The GI tract is essentially a muscular tube lined by a mucous membrane of columnar epithelial cells that exhibit a regional variation in structure and function. In the last two decades, our understanding of the endocytosis and translocation of bacteria across this mucosa, and the sorts of cell damage caused by pathogenic bacteria, has increased.​

Antimicrobial Peptides from Fish has a lots of great info on how skin (i.e. epithelial cells) is involved:

“AMP” = antimicrobial peptide

Piscidins exhibit potent antimicrobial activity against a variety of microorganisms.

They are widely active against bacteria Gram-positive and -negative species…

Piscidins have also been shown to possess anti-fungal activity, anti-parasitic activity, and anti-viral activity.

Piscidins are mainly expressed in gill, skin and intestine, although can be also found in head-kidney and spleen. However, in Atlantic cod piscidin was found to be ubiquitous, being detected in chondrocytes, heart, oocytes, exocrine and endocrine glands, swim bladder, and other tissues.

Like AMP genes from mammals, piscidin genes can be induced by a variety of stimuli, including Gram-positive and -negative bacteria, bacteria cell components like LPS or the bacterial antigen ASAL.

Furthermore, piscidin genes are induced by parasites, viruses,…

Another study demonstrated that high biomass density (i.e., a higher concentration of fish per volume water in an experimental tank) used as an acute stressor component, led to an to up-regulation of dicentracin in gills and skin as well.

Histone-derived AMPs have been identified in a number of fish species, with broad-spectrum activity against both human and fish pathogens, including water molds and a parasitic dinoflagellate. They are expressed and secreted in fish skin, and found in other tissues, including gill, speen and the gut.

Further evidence that they play a role in host defense of the fish comes from studies showing that expression of histone-derived AMP genes are induced under conditions of stress in specific tissues of different fish species.

Personal immunity versus social immunity also has some great info on internal and external parasites:

Many organisms defend their fitness against attack from parasites and pathogens by mounting an immune response. Most physiological immune responses are internal and targeted at organisms that have invaded the body. For example, invertebrates show innate responses to parasites by producing antimicrobial peptides and lysozymes that either inhibit the growth of microorganisms or kill them. Similarly, their blood cells phagocytose single-celled parasites, whereas larger invaders are encapsulated in a layer of blood cells that are melanized, sealing off the invader from the host’s body (Rolff and Reynolds 2009). Vertebrates additionally have an adaptive immune response comprising lymphocytes that respond to antigens on the surface of the parasite, and these provide a targeted response with immunological memory (Janeway et al. 2001). In addition to this typical internal response, some defenses are deployed externally to overcome microorganisms in the environment.

The modified polio vaccine, though, which goes through the mucosa and the immune system 'sees' is given orally.

Interesting that polio the epidemic came from too much cleanliness.

Folks lost the immunity they had which all through history (city-living history, anyway) had kept outbreak numbers in the single digits as percent of population.

Poo in the streets is gross, but it kept us immune from Polio....and who knows what else. (Did we trade immunity for spectrum disorders?)

 

[User1]

For many people this is a better option. When all these college grads with their law or business degrees get old, they will wonder why they are working so hard and so late. Then they will realize they have no pension. Then they will say. OMG, that Geezer Paul had a good Idea. Don't quarantine and don't go to college.

Mike Rowe tends to also agree. College isn't for everyone and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar job. I do not know when parents started to say you must go to college (I know I did this) but it really is wrong. So much in fact that public and private high schools should be mandating a vocational year for everyone child. This way they get basic drafting, small motor engines, wood or metal, and electrical shops. Some jobs require college - I know my daughter just graduated with her biology/medical sciences degree but she is going on to things that require that. My other son is computer science and while you can go alone without having a degree is an easier way into interviews especially if you are competing with low dollar off shore personal who say they have something and may/may not actually have it. My last boy is the one that taught me to rethink how I viewed college no college. Sometimes one needs to step back and listen...maybe that is success?

I can tell you what success is not though. Taking apart ones return plumbing from the return pump, making the cut, adding in a union check valve (I know, but it is only one part of preventing back siphon), only to realize that you forgot to attach the threaded collar on before gluing it to the PVC pipe Yes, it was snug, yes it was butted up to the tee, yes I can't get any replacement local nor can I do any PVC / plumbing surgery to fix. Had to take it offline for the night and fix it this morning (which I just did before getting some coffee to read a bit and order a replacement because they don't sell the slip fitting (that has a o-ring) single unit. That isn't success much like what they say about cutting wood. Measure twice, cut once...

Maybe it is success though because failure does breed success. I don't know - I think it was a failure so not success. Hope everyone has a great weekend.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Still waiting for the day we can add polio to smallpox and rinderpest as diseases we have eliminated. I think we are like 600(i might be really off recalling by memory lol) cases a year away. That number has been virtually the same for like a decade though

 

[MnFish1]

Random, unrelated bugs, you're right. But... Similar bugs CAN provoke an immune response that WILL apply to the target pathogen (I have a link on this but not finding it right now...) Since the "treatment" in question has always been natural seawater along with live (or at least intact, unprocessed) foods, it could be reasonable to presume "similar" is in there.
(Thinking of the stats on the literally-astronomical # of microbes in 1mL of seawater.)

There is definitely cross immunity (partial and even full) between different strains of viruses and bacteria. My point was only this - in reality, Reefer X in NYC is going to be adding different 'bacteria, etc' from his local waters than Reefer Y in Hawaii, etc etc. Reefer X may be getting his fish sourced from a place in the Red Sea, Reefer Y maybe getting his fish sources from a place in Fiji. It is totally a random 'crap-shoot' as to whether the 'stuff' you're adding especially if its local to your area, will be helpful or not to your tank inhabitants. There is data showing that fish that are 'immune' to CI from the carribean are more susceptible to CI from teh pacific.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Only tangentially related but great article on coral immunity. I had read awhile ago. http://www.int-res.com/articles/dao2010/90/d090p085.pdf
But also found cross immunity in corals which were thought to have very simple immune responses.

 

[Centerline]

Great Success for me would be not crashing a tank every 18 months or getting caught by my wife shopping at WWC LOL.

 

[mcarroll]

Sometimes one needs to step back and listen...maybe that is success?

I love it. Maybe best answer yet.

adding in a union check valve (I know, but it is only one part of preventing back siphon), only to realize that you forgot to attach the threaded collar on before gluing it to the PVC pipe

I've done this before! It was funny after I got it fixed.

(BTW, better to resolve the need for the check valve than to actually install a check valve IMO. I'd consider prefiltering your return water with a sponge or bag on the return pump if you use a check valve. Keep the sponge/bag clean too.)

 

[Paul B]

I wouldn’t mind, plus it gives me a chance to see your tank[emoji2][emoji2]

Mike Rowe tends to also agree. College isn't for everyone and there is nothing wrong with a blue collar job. I do not know when parents started to say you must go to college (I know I did this) but it really is wrong. So much in fact that public and private high schools should be mandating a vocational year for everyone child. This way they get basic drafting, small motor engines, wood or metal, and electrical shops.

My Junior High School had shops and we had to take all sorts of trades. I was in metal shop, electrical shop. wood shop etc. I also went to trade school for my high school to be an electrician. I had 6 hours of electrical training every week. Our shops had wooden walls and we had electrical jobs to do. We had to read the prints and run conduits all over the classroom and connect to other students jobs. The teacher would then put bugs in the wiring and we had to troubleshoot. It was great training for when I got into the electrical union and had to go through 7 more years of apprenticeship. It's supposed to be 5 years but it was slow so they kept you going to school.
I am pushing 70 and still never hired anyone for anything.

When I was a kid many people didn't go to college. We almost all got drafted and sometimes got an even better education, at least we got street and world smart and became independent. College was a big deal then, today everyone goes and everyone wants to sit in an office and push computer keys. The only problem is that there already are too many people doing that, but someone had to build that office, put in the electric, plumbing, roof etc and that job can't be exported, it has to happen right here and it is a good job.

Independence from your parents is a fantastic thing. Of course I loved my parents but my dad died suddenly when I was ten. That was actually a good thing for me. Independent wise I mean, I would have rather my Dad had lived of course . But it taught me to make money and I always did. I bought my own car, my own wedding and my own home. I never borrowed or asked for money from anyone and I never will. I think it should be illegal to give money to your kids after about 16 years old. If they want a car, get a job or walk, they will get a job. Trust me. Today kids rely too much on Daddy. Daddy made his own money and he should spend it on himself and his wife. Kids should work, or starve. It's easy and the natural way.

 

[mcarroll]

My Junior High School had shops and we had to take all sorts of trades.

I'm jealous!

By the time I got to Lord Of The Flies Junior High School we were down to only wood, metal, cooking and sewing. I took em all (hobby/project box, screwdriver and garden shovel, ninja outfit, all kinds of stuff – respectively) and loved each one. But folks weren't required to take them as far as I remember.

High school had a "career center" across town, shared by 16 other high schools where you could hypothetically take classes....but I was already "on my way to college" in the school's "AP" curriculum and didn't know how to get into any of the classes out there anyway. Didn't even know anyone taking classes there.

The local "shop classes" as the school were more limited and nobody was encouraged to take those either....at least nobody I knew ever was. I know they at least had an auto-shop – wish I woulda got in that at least! (Something I've actually considered going back to school for.)

My daughter will not find the same fate as she gets older.

 

[Tahoe61]

I have learned a few things about tanks. You can have a real beautiful tank full of SPS corals and some fish, that is easy.

Nope Paul you're wrong. I never saw your "beautiful tank full of SPS corals".
No one disparages your tank for it's uniqueness. One tank and method, perhaps you should show a little appreciation to another methods and stop standing on your pedestal of your 40+ year old tank.

 

[Paul B]

You only know my tank since electronic camera's were invented. I did have quite a bit of SPS at one time. A couple of times actually. I just like LPS better. I also don't like tangs and angels, does that mean I can't keep them?
My tank has gone through a lot of phases, whatever I am interested in at the time.
Here are some SPS


But I think the tank was the most natural here in my seaweed gorgonian phase. I don't see any SPS in the picture so I probably didn't have any then.



Here is a seaweed and hair algae phase.



And my almost all gorgonian phase.



Almost all LPS phase.

I have had a tank full of SPS already for years so the thrill is gone. I also find them boring as my tastes have changed. I like LPS and mostly gorgonians, shoot me!

I actually didn't say I had a tank full of beautiful SPS. I said I had a tank full of SPS, not particularly beautiful, I never said that. My tank is not set up for that for reasons I said many times.

You may not like any of the phases of my tank but my tank is there for me to like, no one else. I have been saying for many years, Maybe 30, my tank is an experiment and was never meant to be a thing of beauty.
It's a hobby and not meant to impress anyone. I like it and I like to experiment and tinker. If I didn't why would I have a copper, water cooled LED lighting system?

 

[Paul B]

One tank and method, perhaps you should show a little appreciation to another methods and stop standing on your pedestal of your 40+ year old tank.

Which other method is that? If I see a tank I like, I like it in the post or I comment on it. If I see something for it's uniqueness, I like it better and comment on it. I never, not once said my tank was the best or my system is the best and I never tell anyone to emulate my tank with my 160 nitrates. My tank has plenty of negatives, especially if you are looking for a tank full of SPS which is of course beautiful, but not everyone wants that. I don't. But there is nothing wrong with it as an SPS coral tank can certainly be beautiful and much harder to care for than my tank which is just one of my many hobbies and not even the most important one.

This thread was not about my tank, other people made it about my tank. It was just something I thought was something that would have been of interest rather than a post that asks, I have a blue fish and a red fish, what should I get next. It is a discussion for anyone with an opinion and it drew some comments and criticisms which is a good thing.

 

[mcarroll]

Wow.

Just wow.

That was a "great success" post????????

My tank is not set up for that for reasons I said many times.

You may not like any of the phases of my tank but my tank is there for me to like, no one else. I have been saying for many years, Maybe 30, my tank is an experiment and was never meant to be a thing of beauty.
It's a hobby and not meant to impress anyone. I like it and I like to experiment and tinker.

I have to use different numbers, of course, but I otherwise feel the same about mine.

Sometimes it seems like the hobby view of what a reef tank "is allowed to be" is getting more and more narrow....and less and less related to what actual reefs are like.

 

[JCM]

Wow this has turned into a cluster...

Paul obviously has his ways of running a tank and it's hard to say that it's not a success! It's a very healthy natural looking reef tank that has stood the test of time.

Maybe I missed it paul, but I haven't seen you say that your way is the only way to run a reef tank.

QT, don't QT, sps, macro algae, etc. there are about 213,543,937 ways to have a successful reef tank, hopefully no one is arguing that there's only one...

No reason for everyone to get so heated.

 

[MnFish1]

If you climbed Mt Everest and came to with in 500' from the top, that is almost Great Success, but not quite because it takes away from the people who made it all the way up and roasted Hot dogs there.

This illustrates how subjective the thread is. Since lots of people have climbed Mt Everest - some would say 'its not a 'great success''. Since no one ive known personally has done it - I would call it a 'great success'.. In fact I would say anyone I personally knew that made it to base camp II was a great success..

You can have a real beautiful tank full of SPS corals and some fish, that is easy. Or you can have a beautiful tank with not so many SPS and not so many colorful corals if you want a tank full of old spawning fish that never get sick. It is extremely difficult (but not impossible) to have both in the same tank.

I do not think this is true. This is your definition - Again - many breeders of angelfish, corals, etc do not use your methods. You have 'one way' to have a healthy tank. Everyone has granted that. There are multiple other ways as well. Which you apparently are not willing to grant. BTW - based on your response to @Tahoe61, your tank is not really 40+ years old - it has gone through phases - the gorgonian phase, the SPS phase, etc. Well in that case I have been doing it for 30 years.

 

[Gareth elliott]

Wow this has turned into a cluster...

Paul obviously has his ways of running a tank and it's hard to say that it's not a success! It's a very healthy natural looking reef tank that has stood the test of time.

Maybe I missed it paul, but I haven't seen you say that your way is the only way to run a reef tank.

QT, don't QT, sps, macro algae, etc. there's about 213,543,937 ways to have a successful reef tank, hopefully no one is arguing that there's only one...

No reason for everyone to get so heated.

I think id get heated if 213,543,93(8) became breeding clowns with jellyfish genes so they glowed. #keepswglowfishfree.
Sorry thought id try some bad humor

 

[MnFish1]

Paul obviously has his ways of running a tank and it's hard to say that it's not a success! It's a very healthy natural looking reef tank that has stood the test of time. Maybe I missed it paul, but I haven't seen you say that your way is the only way to run a reef tank.

Re-read the original post in this thread - and upfront - I admit I may be misreading the intent.

That said - I read (between the clever charming folksy examples of things that are never said (which I found quite funny- in a positive way)) a person that suggests that people that use QT methods and Prazipro, etc etc cannot or will not enjoy 'great success'.

Or if they 'claim to have great success', that they do not match the 'great success' breeding or long-lived fish of the original poster.

I didnt post this as a debate point - its just my OWN opinion. If you dont agree with me thats great - I was just posting my interpretation of the original post. ****** alert. I also posted that its difficult to interpret the tone/meaning of messages written vs spoken - so im fully willing to admit that I could be incorrect in my interpretation...