What is "Great Success"?

[mcarroll]

It was just a thread to start a discussion and apparently, it did. It is about people saying "Great Success" and thats it. Not success, not pretty good, not fine or OK, but "Great Success". Great success is the epitome of success, it is better than just plain success. If it were the same thing, there would be no need to put "great" in front of it.

For anyone's reference, here's some "great success" seed conversations to peruse: "great success"
(that's a search link....click it and then hit SEARCH.....20 pages of "great success". )

 

[MnFish1]

That's true for all of us though – we all keep corals that our tanks are capable of keeping and avoid the ones it can't. Beside all that, Paul has an amazing reef tank with fish that breed like crazy in it, corals that grow like crazy, sponges that grow like crazy, etc.
I think it's a little specious to try and critique THAT on the basis you used. It would make more sense look at all the stereotypical tanks out there and critique them – which is usually easy. (It's unlikely any of them will be around in 3-5 years.)

Using other methods that are more 'mainstream' people have the choice to keep any type of coral. whether they are going to be successful with every species or not is unknown.

Paul has stated in at least a couple posts that he knows that with the parameters in his tank he cannot keep certain more picky fish/corals.

Thats all I was saying. Lots of tanks have fish that breed like crazy (if they have 2 of the same species - and a large enough tank), corals that grow like crazy, etc etc. Im not saying Pauls methods are 'wrong' or 'bad'. Im just saying they are not any better or worse than several other methods out there for keeping a reef tank.

 

[Ferrell]

Great success is having a great wife who is also your best friend and she is both of those things for the rest of your life. I have that.

Of course, I also have a fish tank.


I’ll second that. Through thick and thin and even a catastrophic 300 gallon tank blowout lol

 

[MnFish1]

For anyone's reference, here's some "great success" seed conversations to peruse: "great success"
(that's a search link....click it and then hit SEARCH.....20 pages of "great success". )

I bit - I read the first page. Most of them were not boasting about 'great success' in their tanks, but rather 'I had great success with this but then xxxx bad happened... There were also some about bourbon. Tongue in cheek I will mention that if you searched for posts not flagged 'great success' you would get thousands of pages. (there are >400,000 posts in teh reef aquarium discussion at 25/page = well you can do the math

 

[MnFish1]

I reproduced it.....I haven't lost a fish to disease in 10 years. (Is that "success"?).


Heck this tank is only 2.5 and is dz free using healthy feeding and husbandry and no QT. Several others have reproduced it as well.

The problem is I reproduced it too - without using those methods.

 

[rstrann]

Everybody's got their own yard stick, but I think if you breed\spawn\culture something to the point you're selling or giving progeny away to others, then you've had "success" with that species. Of course, you can contribute to the hobby (or dare I say "art") of reefkeeping in a number of ways, though... Not just by propagation.

 

[Paul B]

My credentials start with an undergraduate degree in microbiology and immunology and extend some 8 years after that. My guess is that I can match your scientific background.

My credentials start with purposely not going to college. That was a great thing that I decided to do for a few reasons. One being I have too many hobbies and I live a few blocks from a train station. The Long Island Railroad is the biggest commuter line in the world. Every evening I see people coming off that train 8, 9 and 10:00 at night. Many of them are old. They are all college graduates. Construction workers like myself got home at 3:00 and have a pension so we don't have to work until we are old. We also get free health insurance and make a decent salary That is one reason i didn't go to college. I have a life.

I am also a compulsive reader and experimenter so I learned what I wanted to learn, when I wanted to learn it without having to learn a bunch of silly things that some professor thinks I need to learn. In other words, I am self taught. I got drafted and in 16 weeks I became a Sargent skipping two ranks. I got into the electrical union and a few weeks after 7 year apprenticeship I became a General Foreman running multi Million dollar jobs.
I didn't need college or credentials.

I have never hired anyone for anything in my life except dentists, and if I could see in there (and stand my screaming) I would do that because I don't like the way they do a lot of things.

I acquired two patents and wrote a book. I also have my art work in 3 galleries in Manhattan.

If I went to college I would most likely be an electrical engineer working twice the hours for half the pay and i would still be working today at almost 70. College isn't for everyone and it will hurt many people. Especially with the extremely Liberal education that many colleges teach. If I had to do it all over again,I would do the same thing.
Except that now, unfortunately, my union gives you a college degree.

Degrees do not impress me at all. Creativity, self reliance, hard working, diligence, patriotism and being proud of what you can do impress me. (And a full head of hair)

Anyone can get a degree. I can go to college free any time I want. But professors don't have reef tanks so I can't learn from them. Almost none of them served in the Army but I won't go into that.

 

[MnFish1]

My credentials start with purposely not going to college. That was a great thing that I decided to do for a few reasons. One being I have too many hobbies and I live a few blocks from a train station. The Long Island Railroad is the biggest commuter line in the world. Every evening I see people coming off that train 8, 9 and 10:00 at night. Many of them are old. They are all college graduates. Construction workers like myself got home at 3:00 and have a pension so we don't have to work until we are old. We also get free health insurance and make a decent salary That is one reason i didn't go to college. I have a life.

I am also a compulsive reader and experimenter so I learned what I wanted to learn, when I wanted to learn it without having to learn a bunch of silly things that some professor thinks I need to learn. In other words, I am self taught. I got drafted and in 16 weeks I became a Sargent skipping two ranks. I got into the electrical union and a few weeks after 7 year apprenticeship I became a General Foreman running multi Million dollar jobs.
I didn't need college or credentials.

I have never hired anyone for anything in my life except dentists, and if I could see in there (and stand my screaming) I would do that because I don't like the way they do a lot of things.

I acquired two patents and wrote a book. I also have my art work in 3 galleries in Manhattan.

If I went to college I would most likely be an electrical engineer working twice the hours for half the pay and i would still be working today at almost 70. College isn't for everyone and it will hurt many people. Especially with the extremely Liberal education that many colleges teach. If I had to do it all over again,I would do the same thing.
Except that now, unfortunately, my union gives you a college degree.

Degrees do not impress me at all. Creativity, self reliance, hard working, diligence, patriotism and being proud of what you can do impress me. (And a full head of hair)

Anyone can get a degree. I can go to college free any time I want. But professors don't have reef tanks so I can't learn from them. Almost none of them served in the Army but I won't go into that.

I agree with everything you said here Paul. I mentioned it only because the previous poster suggested I must not know anything because he has a medical background. I know since we've talked before that you dont (and shouldn't) take what I say as a criticism of you personally. In my own reef tank I also tend to keep a more 'hands-off' let what happens happen. PS - you sound like my father in this post (he implored me not to go to college but instead join the military and do a trade).... which is a good thing.

 

[MnFish1]

@PaulB And PS - yeah - its also common sense that anyone with your tank is doing something right. I appreciate our sparring matches because I usually learn alot. its not about just 'arguing for the sake of arguing'.

 

[Paul B]

MnFish I don't consider it arguing
as I never argue about fish. No one has to do what I do and I would rather people don't. Make up your own mind, do your own experimenting, make your own mistakes, figure it out yourself, you will be a better person.

PS - you sound like my father in this post (he implored me not to go to college but instead join the military and do a trade).... which is a good thing.

For many people this is a better option. When all these college grads with their law or business degrees get old, they will wonder why they are working so hard and so late. Then they will realize they have no pension. Then they will say. OMG, that Geezer Paul had a good Idea. Don't quarantine and don't go to college.

Also, if you "can" work, but you don't "want" to work, you should starve because I don't want to feed you. They should build more cemeteries for the people who want to starve.

Of course if I needed open heart surgery I would want a college graduated surgeon. The only problem with that is if as he was driving to the hospital to operate on me and he got a flat tire, he probably wouldn't know a lug wrench from an MRI machine.

I am friends with some professors and I have a cousin who is a Marine Biology Professor. He has never kept a gold fish and has spent 1/2 hour underwater. He knows nothing that he is looking at in my tank but can name every worm in English and Latin. He can't change a tire, or put air in it. No creativity at all because I feel the more degrees you have, the less common sense and creativity you have.
I am also good friends with a Neurologist, the guy is very famous but don't know how to put gas in his generator or just anything else.

If I were stranded on a desert Island with say, Oh I don't know, pick any actress. I could make a flat screen TV out of two coconut shells, a dead flounder, plastic spoon and a hermit crab. If it was a Blue leg hermit crab, I could make it in blue ray.

 

[lapin]

I have never hired anyone for anything in my life except dentists, and if I could see in there (and stand my screaming) I would do that because I don't like the way they do a lot of things.

I have tried to do most of my own dentistry. Its very hard to super glue stuff. in the mirror. Hold breath until dry, so you dont kill yourself. Extractions are easy, just let them fall out, in their own time. Nothing good happens fast ......Now that they have light cured epoxy, Its a bit easier to fix chips and broken teeth. Im getting old. I figure if you have half your teeth left by age 50 you are doing ok.

 

[mcarroll]

Using other methods that are more 'mainstream' people have the choice to keep any type of coral. whether they are going to be successful with every species or not is unknown.

Look at all the folks following "mainstream methods" who still have troubles just keeping everything alive – doesn't matter which fish or which coral.

Paul has stated in at least a couple posts that he knows that with the parameters in his tank he cannot keep certain more picky fish/corals.

So Paul knows what he cannot keep whereas most folks seem to assume they can keep "any type of coral."

That's not a limitation on Paul's tank, it's the difference between wisdom and youthful exuberance.

Lots of tanks have fish that breed like crazy

Note I didn't say breeding fish are "unheard of".

However, having more than one breeding pair per tank does border on unheard of.

And I'm not sure about "lots" - to me, the Fish Breeding Forum demonstrates "not a lot".

For another couple of examples, there are only 10 pages of results on a site-wide search for "breeding" or for "eggs". Lots of those search results have nothing to do with fish or fish breeding either. (Twice as many results for "great success", just to recall that stat. )

No one has to do what I do and I would rather people don't. Make up your own mind, do your own experimenting, make your own mistakes, figure it out yourself, you will be a better person.

"@Paul B's method" in a nutshell!

I'll add my own approach:

• Don't do what Paul does. (Copy cat.)
• Learn from what Paul does.
• If you can't do that, then just enjoy the pics.

 

[Greaps]

Great Success is knowing your purpose and growing to reach YOUR potential.

-Maxwell

 

[Paul B]

I have learned a few things about tanks. You can have a real beautiful tank full of SPS corals and some fish, that is easy. Or you can have a beautiful tank with not so many SPS and not so many colorful corals if you want a tank full of old spawning fish that never get sick. It is extremely difficult (but not impossible) to have both in the same tank. SPS corals that many people seem to want "like" really great water conditions with few dissolved organics just like in the sea where they come from. Spawning, immune fish "like" and need a lot of food. More food than people would normally feed because first of all, it is expensive, it is a pain to feed multiple times a day and it screws up the water. But for a fish to spawn, it needs an enormous amount of "extra" food because not only are we trying to get the fish in breeding mode, but a fishes spawn or eggs could be almost half the fishes weight. That isn't going to happen on some flakes and pellets.

Of course you can have both types of tank but you will have to change huge amounts of water as dosing vinegar, Vodka or tree stump remover won't work. Before that vinegar or vodka removes enough nitrates your fish will be drunk or turn into a Greek Salad.
I have had a tank full of SPS already for years so the thrill is gone. I also find them boring as my tastes have changed. I like LPS and mostly gorgonians, shoot me!

I also want all my fish totally immune from everything and constantly spawning, which they are. Yes, I know, it's luck and phases of the moon, think whatever you like but they are totally immune. I don't have time for medications, quarantine, hospital tanks, dipping, dripping, etc. I also don't want to or need to add garlic to stimulate feeding. I may need something to put them on a diet.

My fish always eat, even when they are brand new, that is the sign of a natural tank. If you add a copperband and you have to do all sorts of things to "entice" it to eat that is either because that fish hates you, It is on Jenny Craig, or your tank is to artificial. Copperbands are huge, aggressive eaters and are not a delicate fish. They just hate quarantine and usually get sick or die there and they hate foods they were not meant to eat. They eat worms in the sea so they may not eat oatmeal or buffalo wings. A natural tank is a fairly dirty tank with "stuff" growing on the rocks that they can search through looking for lunch. Yes, even a little algae. OMG Thats how they live, they are searchers. That may not be the Ideal tank to keep SPS corals in. It is what it is.

I also want my fish to die from nothing but old age. I am almost at that point now but I already passed the stage where a fish will get sick, they will never get sick unless I move and they have to live in a cardboard box down by the river for a few weeks. They frown on that.

To get there they need food with live bacteria in it so if you want to feed flakes or pellets, set up a hospital tank because you will need it.
Fish do 3 things every day, eat, poop and grow eggs.

I find this stuff very easy but we make it hard by trying to change natural conditions with quarantine or tweeking parameters by adding all sorts of silly things that are not in seawater. Fish want to stay healthy as long as we leave them alone.
We have disease forums for all the sick quarantined and tweeked tanks. I have no idea where I was going with this thread but obviously I have nothing to do right now and I am wordy.

I am waiting for some wood to come in that I had to have specially ordered for a King Size bed I am building for my new home. It is going to look like a huge industrial dolly with 12" steel wheels and a big handle on the end.
The thing will look like it is built out of 4X6 lumber and will be very cool. If you like industrial or Steam Punk I mean.

View near my new home.

 

[Newb73]

1. My credentials start with an undergraduate degree in microbiology and immunology and extend some 8 years after that. My guess is that I can match your scientific background.
2. I never said that nutrition isn't related to immunity (in fact I mentioned that it was common sense that a starving or malnourished animal will have a suboptimal immune function). Im not going to repeat all of what I said in my just posted post, you can read it if you like.

My poignant argument was this:

" I have heard some one say that feeding a certain food stimulates or potentiates or maintains the immune system in fish with no evidence..."

The key word there is 'certain'. I did not say that nutrition wasn't important. I said that Paul's claims that 'certain' live foods with bacteria supposedly potentiates the immune system (and are needed for great success in this hobby) have no evidence... This debate is similar to the 'feed raw meat to pets' vs pre-made pet food.

I also dont hear many people here claiming to have 'great success' in reef-keeping.

Agreed. There are no magic bullet immune supplements except for Dr. Oz, Jenny Macarthy and Gwenth Pallatro fans of alternative reality.

What do you do for a living? You certainly do exceed my training, especially in micro. I teach diagnostic med to physicians, mostly older docs who have not kept up w newer criteria and need continuing ed and their nursing staff who review their documentation.

Most of my efforts revolve around dealing with acquired microbial resistance of abx and selection of antibiotics for various pneumonia and sepsis. FWIW i actually have zero faith in cultures and the work of micro labs. Too many steps that can go wrong from the technique used to get the sample (contamination) to the culture media to the temp and incubation period to the results being skewed by pt.getting abx before sample drwn and finally differentiating colonization from pathogen (for example i am chronically colonized with both pseudomonas and mrsa, and we are all colonized w some form of E. Coli at times etc.) You just can't put much stake in those results when lives are on the line. False positives are common. False negatives are ubitiqous. If you get a result from a proper technique in two sites and want to use the sensitivity for abx selection.....fine. Other than that, tx the patient and ignore all the rest of the micro work.


The PROBLEM with your post was you set up a straw man argument. Your take down of one particular claim of Pauls (Edit, you didn't say it was Pauls claim, you said "Some people claim") in no way invalidates Pauls other points. (His obvious jokes aside)... You set up the tone and intent of your post to imply it did.

 

[MnFish1]

Look at all the folks following "mainstream methods" who still have troubles just keeping everything alive – doesn't matter which fish or which coral.

Maybe Im not making myself clear.

So Paul knows what he cannot keep whereas most folks seem to assume they can keep "any type of coral." That's not a limitation on Paul's tank, it's the difference between wisdom and youthful exuberance.

I think its a bit different - as Paul explained in his last post: "You can have a real beautiful tank full of SPS corals and some fish, that is easy. Or you can have a beautiful tank with not so many SPS and not so many colorful corals if you want a tank full of old spawning fish that never get sick. It is extremely difficult (but not impossible) to have both in the same tank"

Of course its not a limitation on 'Paul's tank', he is just doing what he wants to do. It is also not a 'general' method for maintaining a reef tank.

Note I didn't say breeding fish are "unheard of". However, having more than one breeding pair per tank does border on unheard of.

Part of that reason is simple: The majority of people in this hobby do not keep pairs of fish. Those that do, require large tanks. For example - I doubt it would be easy to keep 2 breeding pairs of angelfish in 1 tank. Or 2 breeding pairs of clowns (or damsels). But either way, Paul has said that clowns and damsels breeding doesn't count because everyone can do it. Certainly, most people dont recommend keeping MANY of the fish we commonly have in our tanks together due to the high likelihood of fighting/stress.

Again, Do people that are trying to breed angelfish (and others) 'need' to use these methods for success?

Keeping it simple - there is more than one way to skin a cat - Paul has a great tank and great experience.

 

[Newb73]

Paul - you create a lot of false questions. Not a lot of people claim 'great success'. When you say it that way it makes everyone assume that what youre saying is 'what everyone does'. In reality, very few people say any of the things quoted in your original post.

Example - no one says this: Or did you buy a Moorish Idol because you saw it eating Hamburger Helper in the store and the store owner assured you the fish has been eating this for 6 months so you got it home and although it is covered in spots and is nauseous so you put Prizapro on it and it is still alive after 3 days.

Example - no one thinks this: If a person lives 30 or 40 or even 50 years was he successful?

But you couch these posts in cuteness - and 'humor'. and so everyone says - oh yes he is right. In reality - most people dont think this way. It would be better (IMHO) to just say what you are trying to say with your original post above)- the point of which im still not clear - rather than this I fed my moorish Idol bagels and cream cheese with great success". Because no one ive read have said this.

I have heard some one say that feeding a certain food stimulates or potentiates or maintains the immune system in fish with no evidence...

Also please show me where in this post you mentioned poor nutrition crashes and immune system.

I cannot find it.

If you made your point in a later post I'll remind you i was not replying to a later post (as i don't have a time machine that allows me to jump into the future and read future posts).

I was replying to THIS post.

 

[MnFish1]

Also please show me where in this post you mentioned poor nutrition crashes and immune system.
I cannot find it. If you made your point in a later post I'll remind you i was not replying to a later post (as i don't have a time machine that allows me to jump into the future and read future posts).

I was replying to THIS post.

@Newb73 I already answered this question. In my post yesterday at 1:03 PM I posted a second post in which I made it clear my views about nutrition and immunity and Paul B's theory. Shortly thereafter I posted response to your critique of mine - and I was only pointing out that I had already said basically what you did about nutrition shortly before having read your critique.

One thing everyone should learn is that its very difficult to judge tone and meaning on these message boards. I don't want to have a *** for tat regurgitation of these messages - but quote the 2 below to illustrate this.

In my first post I stated "I have heard some one say that feeding a certain food stimulates or potentiates or maintains the immune system in fish with no evidence..."

You decided that this meant: "Immunity isn't related in any way to nutrition? That is your poignant argument? Except you are wrong."

Your impression of what I was saying was completely different than the message I was trying to make.

 

[Paul B]

I'm so confused. :mad:

 

[mcarroll]

I'm so confused. :mad:

We're clearly going to need a Tardis to finish this conversation.