When did the BUYER become responsible for shipping delays?

[BFVJ3]

We ordered a peach hammer from a company in NY back in Jan. They packed it in a really nice sturdy container. It was cold there and I'm in FL where is a little bit not cold. They had 3 heat packs in the package with a heater pack right on the container with the other outside the packaging materials. When it was received we had peach hammer soup. The water temp was 105 when I probed it. Then had the audacity to want to charge us for shipping to get a new one.

 

[Stang67]

Somewhat local place is now offering Shipping Delay Insurance on their auctions for $9.99

I saw that too, got an email from them. The cost of shipping, and overall frag cost increase I thought was to help off set all the doa claims due to poor shipping vendors. Insurance may be the next new thing.

 

[Doctorgori]

…worked for BOTH USPS and UPS….UPS is ran by Lex Luther and will spend 10K to fight. $3 claim…

USPS? haha
i

Dang 11 pages of intellectual pontification: bad vendors, flaky terms and DOA’s….
But in the end the market will sort things out…eventually

 

[revhtree]

Thread cleaned up. If I missed one report it. If you see another report it. Please keep your posting in line with our TOS. Thank you.

 

[JNalley]

I'll add my $.02 here because I like to live dangerously.

While the seller may not be technically liable under the law, based on loose verbiage, etc,

Just to clarify any confusion, the law sides with the buyer, not the seller. The seller is responsible for using tight, clear verbiage in any disclaimers that attempt to change or modify the existing law. Since the "Standard DOA" and the "Picture within an hour" are written, and nothing about delayed shipping or anything else is written, the law sides with the buyer because the animal/perishable item should have arrived alive under the letter of the law.

The rest of your statement I agree with

 

[KrisReef]

Thread cleaned up. If I missed one report it. If you see another report it. Please keep your posting in line with our TOS. Thank you.

I have not had a chance to finish reading all of the thread and you killed it with edits to make all the juice unfermented and not what was advertised in the first post?

I recently flew on an airline that cancelled my connecting flight while I was driving to the airport. If I had a coral fragment in my luggage who would pay for my losses while I spent the night in Fort Lauderdale?

I recommend folks who are buying coral on line to check the weather and temperature and flight information in between the sellers location and your own to avoid shipping livestock when heat, cold, severe weather or Union disputes etc are present and may impact your satisfaction with what the delivery driver dumps on your doorstep.

If folks don’t take care of their own stuff then the world will be a little uglier than it might have been.

Now let’s get back to this lively discussion about who’s responsible and who is not!

Any one hear anything about this guys football career now that he’s gone? I was kind of disappointed that we didn’t get a recap of his good days, before he left the field.

 

[Doctorgori]

I have not had a chance to finish reading all of the thread and you killed it with edits to make all the juice unfermented and not what was advertised in the first post?

Now let’s get back to this lively discussion about who’s responsible and who is not!

Any one hear anything about this guys football career now that he’s gone? I was kind of disappointed that we didn’t get a recap of his good days, before he left the field.

Ya know that phrase “ if it don’t fit you must acquit” actually was originally used by Johnny Cochran at my paternity trial….only he didn’t show a glove to the jury
Anyway, I solved the murders and for a small fee….
…just intellectually contributing ha ha,

 

[KrisReef]

Ya know that phrase “ if it don’t fit you must acquit” actually was originally used by Johnny Cochran at my paternity trial….only he didn’t show a glove to the jury
Anyway, I solved the murders and for a small fee….
…just intellectually contributing ha ha,

I’m confused now? Did you have OJ’s love child?
Reef on!

 

[rc8t6353]

We ordered a peach hammer from a company in NY back in Jan. They packed it in a really nice sturdy container. It was cold there and I'm in FL where is a little bit not cold. They had 3 heat packs in the package with a heater pack right on the container with the other outside the packaging materials. When it was received we had peach hammer soup. The water temp was 105 when I probed it. Then had the audacity to want to charge us for shipping to get a new one.

What company?

 

[MnFish1]

This seller said they had a standard doa policy in the thread. Just to say delays in shipping that result in a doa is not their problem after the fact. Do you see a little gray now?

According to UPS "Any package containing a live animal shall be considered a perishable commodity and will be accepted for transportation solely at the shipper´s risk for any damage or loss arising from the perishable nature of the item. UPS shall not be liable for any special, incidental, or consequential damages." I did not look up FedEx' policies. According to our local UPS, the insurance offered does not cover living things.

Philosophically, it seems like the seller should be able to buy a policy that covers losses such as this - and if I sold a coral and it arrived dead I would replace it depending on the situation. However, I as a buyer, would also realize that buying a coral from another person (i.e. not a business) - is going to be riskier than buying from a coral growing business. I see the sellers point that delay in shipping is not their fault - but I would have handled it differently.

 

[MnFish1]

Sellers are only responsible if they agree to be responsible? I'm sure any company that has had to pay out damages for selling a harmful/faulty product wished they knew that. Just declare they never agreed to be responsible and they are off the hook.

The seller is responsible for providing a coral as described. Contracting out the work of delivering the coral doesn't absolve them of their responsibility. Don't like the risks associated with selling corals online? Then sell locally.

But, doesn't that go for the buyer also? If the buyer doesn't like the terms the seller is offering, don't buy from that seller? When I have shipped items, I take a picture of it to prove the condition, in the box at the UPS store or FedEx. Most businesses realize that DOA replacement is part of the price of doing business - and raise their prices accordingly. an individual that is selling a coral now and then and who does not have a DOA policy is a seller I would not buy from. All of that said - If I as the seller properly package a coral, that is alive, send it overnight (which should be standard) - and the package is delivered 3 days late - under what premise would that be the fault of the seller (legally, not ethically)

 

[Dom]

I'm a little puzzled on when it became the buyers responsibility to make sure that a ups package gets to their house on time. BUYER'S AND SELLERS can we have an honest discussion/debate on the topic? I won't bore you with all the details as I plan to post the sellers original thread and our discussion at the end of this thread. I thought standard doa meant the coral had to get to your house alive? All I got was " not my responsibility ". So my question is who's is it? Luckily I know all the ways to skin a cat but would hate to see some kid get jacked that doesn't have my resources. This rainbow splice is gonna make a wonderful addition to the system.

Obviously, it is the responsibility of the shipping company. But sometimes, factors impact shipping (think snow storms).

Have you tried asking the seller to file a claim with the shipping company?

 

[robinm]

My wife breeds and sells berghia as a side hustle, on the few occasions that the parcel has been delayed resulting in DOA she always replaces or refunds without quibble. In an online world the cost of replacing is dwarfed by the cost of poor online reviews / negative publicity.

 

[JNalley]

But, doesn't that go for the buyer also? If the buyer doesn't like the terms the seller is offering, don't buy from that seller? When I have shipped items, I take a picture of it to prove the condition, in the box at the UPS store or FedEx. Most businesses realize that DOA replacement is part of the price of doing business - and raise their prices accordingly. an individual that is selling a coral now and then and who does not have a DOA policy is a seller I would not buy from. All of that said - If I as the seller properly package a coral, that is alive, send it overnight (which should be standard) - and the package is delivered 3 days late - under what premise would that be the fault of the seller (legally, not ethically)

Keeping the discussion within the context of this specific transaction, and not in the context of "Woulda coulda shoulda", the Seller Specified a "Standard DOA policy" and "Pictures within 1 hour of arrival". The Seller becomes legally obligated because of the ambiguity of what a "Standard DOA policy" actually is. DOA, as we all know, stands for Dead on Arrival, which means the seller has agreed to cover something Dead on Arrival as long as there are pictures within 1 hour of arrival. The fact that the seller did not disclose that they do not cover delays in shipping makes them legally culpable in this situation. There is no "Standard" for a DOA Policy, and it's not the buyers job to request more detail, it's the sellers legal obligation to disclose those things up front.

From a legal standpoint, as has been discussed to death in this thread, the case law surrounding UCC laws, FTC laws, and state and local consumer protection laws, and contract law, specifically the Mail Order statutes under the FTC, the F.O.B under UCC, the terms of the agreed upon contract (I am paying you to give me a live animal, constitutes the contract) and again, any local protections cover the seller's responsibilities pretty thoroughly. Shippers are Limited Liability companies and operate under such, and through them the party shipping the item with them is responsible for certain things, such as you pointed out previously with perishables.

It is the sellers responsibility, unless specifically disclaiming, to give the buyer what they paid for. Any incidentals such as "I will not cover in the case of late shipping" would need to be addressed within a DOA policy, furnished to the buyer before the sale is completed. That is how the seller is legally responsible, not just ethically...

 

[Naekuh]

I think the seller should still be responsible even with shipping delays, because we do not have the option of a courier.

If the seller gave us the option to pick a courier, then it might be different.
But we are forced a shipping and package fee.... whats the point in that, if the seller will not take responsibility for the shipment arriving alive.

But this only applies if you get the package directly, and its not sitting at your door.

I think the worst case i had with shipping was with reefcleaners.
The package went to the wrong address, sat at there place for 2 days before usps decided to pick it up and redeliver it.

John @ reefcleaners was more then happy to mail me out a entirely new package... he even said don't bother opening it, just toss it, as most of it is probably dead and i do not want you suffer the smell that will come out.

So reef cleaners always gets my business.
But sellers need to know, the more they do for the customer, the more likely we will go back, and recommend them earnestly to other hobbyist.

I have also had to dispute to my CC company once to a vendor i will never use again.
Wont mention, but i haven't seen them active on this forum for a while now.
My CC company said they would probably EAT it, and just credit me the amount, but this was on a chase saphire reserve card, and well, if anyone has that card, they know that chase won't say no to a request, unless its really unreasonable.

 

[UMALUM]

Obviously, it is the responsibility of the shipping company. But sometimes, factors impact shipping (think snow storms).

Have you tried asking the seller to file a claim with the shipping company?

Snow storms in April? Look I don't care if half the country's on fire and the other half is frozen over. Every vendor I've delt with especially with high end sh#t is a part time weatherman. And when someone tells me not my problem I treat em with the same respect. I don't think it's the buyers responsibility to try and find ways to help the seller out.

 

[MnFish1]

Keeping the discussion within the context of this specific transaction, and not in the context of "Woulda coulda shoulda", the Seller Specified a "Standard DOA policy" and "Pictures within 1 hour of arrival". The Seller becomes legally obligated because of the ambiguity of what a "Standard DOA policy" actually is. DOA, as we all know, stands for Dead on Arrival, which means the seller has agreed to cover something Dead on Arrival as long as there are pictures within 1 hour of arrival. The fact that the seller did not disclose that they do not cover delays in shipping makes them legally culpable in this situation. There is no "Standard" for a DOA Policy, and it's not the buyers job to request more detail, it's the sellers legal obligation to disclose those things up front.

From a legal standpoint, as has been discussed to death in this thread, the case law surrounding UCC laws, FTC laws, and state and local consumer protection laws, and contract law, specifically the Mail Order statutes under the FTC, the F.O.B under UCC, the terms of the agreed upon contract (I am paying you to give me a live animal, constitutes the contract) and again, any local protections cover the seller's responsibilities pretty thoroughly. Shippers are Limited Liability companies and operate under such, and through them the party shipping the item with them is responsible for certain things, such as you pointed out previously with perishables.

It is the sellers responsibility, unless specifically disclaiming, to give the buyer what they paid for. Any incidentals such as "I will not cover in the case of late shipping" would need to be addressed within a DOA policy, furnished to the buyer before the sale is completed. That is how the seller is legally responsible, not just ethically...

Ok - I disagree with your reasoning (I've already said the seller - unless there are things we don't know about - would be smart to replace the coral (or the money) for the sake of his business. Specific to this incident.

And woulda/shoulda/coulda examples are often how legal points are discussed. The buyer has 2 recourses 1. Claim with UPS (which should actually have been done by the shipper). 2. Sue the seller. If there is no specific DOA policy, the buyer should have asked IMHO, what that policy is/was. If the seller says 'standard DOA policy', and the customer doesn't question it means that the seller can say it means anything he or she wants it to say, right? If a contract is ambiguous - it behooves the buyer to refuse to sign/agree to it or its implications. Right.

 

[Dom]

Ambiguity in a contract favors the person or parties that did NOT draw the contract up.

 

[PotatoPig]

Philosophically, it seems like the seller should be able to buy a policy that covers losses such as this

TBH - it’s probably one of those things where the risk is high enough it’s not commercially viable to insure.

IMO - any vendor who is selling more than a very small volume is going to see regular enough losses that this should probably be a “self insure” scenario and just be baked into the pricing as overhead.

 

[JNalley]

Ok - I disagree with your reasoning (I've already said the seller - unless there are things we don't know about - would be smart to replace the coral (or the money) for the sake of his business. Specific to this incident.

And woulda/shoulda/coulda examples are often how legal points are discussed. The buyer has 2 recourses 1. Claim with UPS (which should actually have been done by the shipper). 2. Sue the seller. If there is no specific DOA policy, the buyer should have asked IMHO, what that policy is/was. If the seller says 'standard DOA policy', and the customer doesn't question it means that the seller can say it means anything he or she wants it to say, right? If a contract is ambiguous - it behooves the buyer to refuse to sign/agree to it or its implications. Right.

I mean, you're free to disagree, but there was no reasoning in my statements. They were statements of fact. You are free to go down the rabbit hole of consumer protection law that I did in order to find this information, and you're free to not do so and remain ignorant of your protections as a buyer. That's up to you. The law is the law, and while it can be changed, until it is changed, we're all operating under it currently.