Where does pest responsibility start?

[Pete polyp]

Well then, let's take a look at this from a different angle. Why would anyone in their right mind want to support a business that hacks up dozens/hundreds/thousands of Coral colonies a month and passes them onto the public with little care. There truly are some beautiful and unique Corals that are imported, you would think that more of the 'Coral Hackers' would take the time to carefully grow out/ propagate the nicer pieces into 'Mother Colonies' to have a constant stream of what would become 'Aquacultured' frags which would have true color, better health with much lower losses for everyone and Hey! could actually be pest free without added work or expense. Once again, if we wish this WE can make it happen by not accepting less.

Cheers, Todd

+1

I have been trying to make this point for a while now!

 

[b_rad_G]

There is no way a vendor will not see aefw. Every one will have to deal with it. They can not qt and treat stuff for 3 months. They can dip and sell but there is no way any vendor can be held responsible for aefw making it to your display. It seems to me as very impractical to even think a retail vendor could sell corals 100% pest free. They would only be able to order once every 3 months per system?

Any vendor selling corals with bite marks or visible pest should be ashamed. They should at least try to sell somewhat health stuff.

The responsibility for the corals you purchase is yours. If aefw make it in your tank then its your fault unless someone put a coral in without your knowledge.

It is impossible to purchase an acro from anyone that has never had bugs. I'm sure there are a few hobbiest out there that qt from day 1 and took all the proper precautions but even then a fw might slip by.

 

[Jimbo]

Well then, let's take a look at this from a different angle. Why would anyone in their right mind want to support a business that hacks up dozens/hundreds/thousands of Coral colonies a month and passes them onto the public with little care. There truly are some beautiful and unique Corals that are imported, you would think that more of the 'Coral Hackers' would take the time to carefully grow out/ propagate the nicer pieces into 'Mother Colonies' to have a constant stream of what would become 'Aquacultured' frags which would have true color, better health with much lower losses for everyone and Hey! could actually be pest free without added work or expense. Once again, if we wish this WE can make it happen by not accepting less.


Cheers, Todd

Exactly ! Those who are making the excuse that some vendors have too much volume and therefore are unable to control pest issues are essentially justifying chop shops.

There are vendors who do exactly as you describe, those are the places that should be getting our business.

 

[b_rad_G]

Well then, let's take a look at this from a different angle. Why would anyone in their right mind want to support a business that hacks up dozens/hundreds/thousands of Coral colonies a month and passes them onto the public with little care. There truly are some beautiful and unique Corals that are imported, you would think that more of the 'Coral Hackers' would take the time to carefully grow out/ propagate the nicer pieces into 'Mother Colonies' to have a constant stream of what would become 'Aquacultured' frags which would have true color, better health with much lower losses for everyone and Hey! could actually be pest free without added work or expense. Once again, if we wish this WE can make it happen by not accepting less.

Cheers, Todd

Not everyone can be ora. This is probably the worst way to be profitable for a small seller. They simply don't have the assets to make such a long term investment.

Now that being said this is probably one of the more profitable ways to sell coral. Ora has the facilities and resources to use this businesses model and it works well. I am sure ora is very careful to introduce pest into their system but I would bet they still have back ups and a plan in place for when it happens.

 

[82engineer]

There are many wholesalers that get in thousands of pieces a week and don't chop them up. But there are plenty of chop shops in operation. It's a lovely but unrealistic concept that every step of the way everyone qt's. Hopefully someone comes up with a way to make this a reality but there are far too many individuals that just won't /don't care enough to make it 100%.

 

[tyler1503]

All of that is totally irrelevant if the end buyer is QT'ing to protect their SPS tank, that costs as much as a new car.

So, yes, I would spend the little extra money to get a pest free coral, but would still quarantine.

That's what i said earlier. It's up to the hobbiest in the end.
But the vendors still have to provide the public with a quality product.
Buying a coral with flatworms is like buying a dog with ringworms. It's easily preventable, yet life threatening if unattended and no one should have to go through that. True there is no guarantee when it comes to corals but a little effort on behalf of these vendors who don't QT or dip would go more than a long way into preventing it

 

[Pete polyp]

Its more like buying a dog with parvo and after you get it home it infested all of your other dogs.

 

[SCMatt]

I think we have all agreed, both sides, that the hobbyist should be taking the steps themselves to be that last line of defense against pests. But the point we are trying to make is that the last line of defense should NOT be where the pest elimination begins. We are the consumer, we shouldn't be having to fix the product we buy before we can enjoy it. The hobbyist level is easiest to reach and convert to take these steps because of forums such as this, we are just lobbying for sellers to join in and attempt to do the same to provide extra protection against pests and take more interest in the product they are selling. And I don't mean to generalize all sellers, there are good ones out there that do take steps and do pass on great frags, however there are also bad ones. We aren't naming them in this thread so I really can't separate between the two, but they know who they are....or rather we do.

 

[Pete polyp]

I think we have all agreed, both sides, that the hobbyist should be taking the steps themselves to be that last line of defense against pests. But the point we are trying to make is that the last line of defense should NOT be where the pest elimination begins. We are the consumer, we shouldn't be having to fix the product we buy before we can enjoy it. The hobbyist level is easiest to reach and convert to take these steps because of forums such as this, we are just lobbying for sellers to join in and attempt to do the same to provide extra protection against pests and take more interest in the product they are selling. And I don't mean to generalize all sellers, there are good ones out there that do take steps and do pass on great frags, however there are also bad ones. We aren't naming them in this thread so I really can't separate between the two, but they know who they are....or rather we do.

No matter what position people take on thus topic this is something we should all agree with!

 

[All Delight]

Ronnie, Do you have a qt system?

 

[All Delight]

Disclosures and guarantees are completely different.

I could name several vendors that I would have faith in going straight to the display knowing that the likelihood of a pest is very minimal.

As I have been. QT is essential at all levels. Note the use of all. Not just when it suits or at the end. QT is completely different than dipping. I'd be curious to know if there are any vendors that implement an actual QT?

Would I be silly to assume that you felt these "several vendors" do implement an actual qt? If not, then why would you have such faith?

 

[All Delight]

I have already made my opinion clear, and I will follow up with what I have already said....

There are vendors and wholesalers already selling pest free corals. These happen to be the biggest companies in the game and moving way more than your brick and mortar store. Its very possible for people to have better quality livestock than what some have considered acceptable. Hobbyists should expect better from vendors, vendors expect better from wholesalers, wholesalers expect better from suppliers and suppliers expect better from collectors.

Please, please, pm me. I want to know

 

[All Delight]

Issue is, even taking diligent steps, there's always something that slips through the crack in this hobby. I know a local guy who had a 600g tank full of SPS, wanted more higher end pieces and ended up removing half of his colonies, ordered 100 new sps frags from an online vendor, dipped and QT'd everything in a separate 100g frag tank for 3 months. He dipped twice weekly and every month he'd transfer the frag onto a new plug sacrificing a bit of the encrusting base, but he wanted to make sure it was clean since his tank was full of sps and $$ he put in. He came down with AEFW and fought it off for 6 months losing 1/4 of his sps.

If that wasn't diligent enough, than you can't expect any vendor to do that for us unless we're planning on paying even more per frag. The responsibility starts somewhere, but it always ends up on our own laps. A good vendor will fix their mistake if we point it out to them, but those shoddy ones are the ones that don't own up to it or choose to ignore their customers.

Reading this entire thread has me paranoid more than ever. Reading your post is even more terrifying.

 

[All Delight]

Well Ronnie, I know where you got those frags from, and while I didn't buy any sps from them, I'll be sure not too.

 

[ronnie]

Ronnie, Do you have a qt system?

I do. Now. :/

It's taken a major loss and then getting aefw again to convince my stubborn self that QT is really the only way.

 

[ronnie]

Well Ronnie, I know where you got those frags from, and while I didn't buy any sps from them, I'll be sure not too.

There's an interesting study on here that tektite is doing. She's discovered that aefw will lay eggs anywhere - on any surface and are not exclusive to dead skeleton as previously believed.

So while there is probably minimal possibility, it is still a possibility to get them from non SPS frags as well.

 

[ronnie]

Would I be silly to assume that you felt these "several vendors" do implement an actual qt? If not, then why would you have such faith?

I believe they do. The ones I'm referencing sell out of their displays for the most part, so they are the "smaller" vendors. They have dual interest in maintaining a pest free business - it's not only their lifeline, it's their enjoyment after work.

 

[turbo21]

It is not that hard for even the largest vendors to keep aefw out of their systems. The key is getting rid of the eggs. You know that aefw eggs are not laid on live tissue right? Because the sps growth will grow right over them

Anytime I buy colonies the first thing I do is cut off the base and any dead branches. If only live tissue goes in for the dip you are guaranteed not to bring any eggs into your system. I know of one top vendor here for sure that does exactly this for every colony they bring in and they even have an acro qt setup. Shocking I know. It can be done!!

The problem comes in with chop shops who only care about sales. The colony comes in today and goes
Out as 20 frags tomorrow

It is inexcusable for frags to
Show up from an order covered in bites Don't give me the they move 5000 pieces a day. Each piece is bagged individually and takes 2 secs to see bite marks covering the frag. That is just plain laziness

I got infected years back from buying a wild colony at a swap and didn't realize the dips didn't kill the eggs

Lesson learned. And I also will
Never buy anything from
That vendor again. They infected at least 3 people at that swap. Yes it was my responsibility to dip and check for eggs. But to me they are know a known aefw carrier


So keep your tanks egg free. Ditch the bases. And remount. And save everyone a lot of trouble

 

[b_rad_G]

OK so let me make sure I completely understand what is being requested here.

People want every seller of acro to qt and treat every piece that comes in for a minimum of 45 days? They would need to have a separate system for every shipment that came in in those 45 days. I mean you can't put new possibly infected corals in with stuff that has been quarantined for a week or 2 and cross contaminate. So 45 days is call it 6 weeks. If a seller gets 2 shipments a week he only needs a minimum of 13 separate systems. That wouldn't be very hard.....

People in this thread want it to sound like it would be very easy for every vendor to eradicate aefw. This may be true I really don't know but if it is easy on the scale of 100-1000 corals per week it shouldn't even be a concern to treat the 10-20 we buy every few months possibly years.

 

[nova65ss]

Thing is and I have said it before even if the wholesalers do it the lfs won't. I have been at my lfs when his stuff arrives from the wholesaler it goes straight from the box into his tanks not even one dip. What good did all of the dips prior to that do for the end user other than drive up cost? Look I am all for getting a better product bottom line is it isn't gonna happen on a large scale. Sure there will be a few but overall not that many.