Why is NH3 going up and NO2, NO3 going down in new tank cycle with bottle bac.

[GARRIGA]

Why are two people answering on what was done - I assume it's some kind of sarcasm?First of all there is. no reason to keep adding ammonium chloride. Dude not sure if this was you or not. but pick a protocol and follow it

That’s my protocol. Keep adding higher levels of ammonium chloride to stress test the system. It worked. Why question it?

 

[Antaguana]

Makes sense to me. When you think you are ready to add fish and thus more Ammonia. Just add a bunch of ammonia and see how well it copes.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1

Just one person here. No sarcasm, just confused.

I am not adding additional ammonium. @GARRIGA may have said he did when we responded. I have added bottle bac each day (mostly) as the bottle instructions say. I have added NH4Cl once as bottle instructions say. I have tested (more often out of interest) than the bottle says. The bottle says to wait for NH4 to go down then add more, and retest on day 6 and 8. I am doing this but after 10 days the ammonia has only gone up steadily it has not gone down.

This is my whole confusion. Ammonia should be converted to nitrite and nitrate but the nitrite and nitrate are steady and the ammonia is going up (with no source of new ammonia).

The best answer I have so far is the bottle of bac is bad and is now simply a bottle of weak ammonia solution so adding it each day (as per instructions) is just adding a bit more ammonia each day.

Here is my short answer - follow the protocol of whatever you're following - For a tank to cycle (less than 6 weeks) - you have to provide food. Generally that is ammonia (i.e Dr. Tim's) and a living bacteria - In your case I would definitely test your test kits. Unless I totally missed it I'm not sure which bacteria/ammonia you're using.

 

[MnFish1]

That’s my protocol. Keep adding higher levels of ammonium chloride to stress test the system. It worked. Why question it?

(There is no reason to add more ammonia. I'm sorry to say. Unless you're using an odd protocol (post it?). In general once the tank can process 2 ppm ammonia it's good to go (in 24 hours). Correct me if I'm wrong.? According to at least one ammonia manufacturer - IMHO - its not as simple as they say - but they have a business I do not

 

[MnFish1]

That’s my protocol. Keep adding higher levels of ammonium chloride to stress test the system. It worked. Why question it?

BTW - sorry to bust your balloon - I was asking what the oP was usings since it's his or her problem we're trying to solve.

 

[MnFish1]

That’s my protocol. Keep adding higher levels of ammonium chloride to stress test the system. It worked. Why question it?

Ok you want an answer - There is a certain level of ammonia - that even if added - a tank would never reach - thus there must be a level in between such that equals fish ammonia production and therefore the ability of toxicity.

For example drop a filefish in a totally fresh (no bacteria) into a 25,000 gallon swimming pool - hey what the heck add a tang - there will never be measurable ammonia in that system - barring another issue

 

[Antaguana]

Here is my short answer - follow the protocol of whatever you're following - For a tank to cycle (less than 6 weeks) - you have to provide food. Generally that is ammonia (i.e Dr. Tim's) and a living bacteria - In your case I would definitely test your test kits. Unless I totally missed it I'm not sure which bacteria/ammonia you're using.

I am usingq Aquavitro "seed" (bottle bacteria)

And no fish start NH4Cl (I don't remember the brand) as the food for the bacteria. I put this in the first day with the first dose of bacteria (amount of mls added are in the data chart).

I have not added any more NH4Cl since the first day as the instructions say to add more when the ammonia levels fall, and they have not fallen yet they are going up. This was (and kinda still is) my OP question how can the ammonia levels go up when I am not adding any more ammonia.

2 answers I have got are.
1 rock and sand (even dead and dry) may have some organic mater in it that is dissolving out).
2. The bottle bacteria is dead so adding bacteria each day is actually just adding a bit of ammonia.

2 seems like the most likey hypothesis. I will get a new bottle of bacteria and see if that has a different result.

 

[GARRIGA]

(There is no reason to add more ammonia. I'm sorry to say. Unless you're using an odd protocol (post it?). In general once the tank can process 2 ppm ammonia it's good to go (in 24 hours). Correct me if I'm wrong.? According to at least one ammonia manufacturer - IMHO - its not as simple as they say - but they have a business I do not

Don’t trust others and just go with what’s logical to me.

Add ammonium chloride. Confirm 4 ppm. Dr Hovac claims both ammonia and nitrite bacteria can handle 5 ppm. Wait on ammonia to cycle then focus on nitrites. Soon as those are zero I keep adding higher levels of ammonium chloride and kept testing to confirm each is zero before adding more again. Been doing this since 2015. It works.

Started with 12 drops. I think I ended with 120. Drops were added throughout the day. Each sequence after confirming past drops were resolved. You’d be amazed how fast ammonia converts once bacteria is established. Could have added fish after 9 days when nitrites were cycled. Ammonia took four days.

Final step was add NoPox which didn’t work until I added phosphates. Tests showed 160 ppm plus. Got nitrates to zero. No WC. Phosphates under 0.25 ppm.

Just because those who know better claim one should follow their way doesn’t mean it’s the only way. Sometimes different ways work. It’s how we learn new ways. My way is better because post cycle my biological media can handle a larger load which means I could literally go add everything wanted day one or know that my filter is capable of handling it since bacteria don’t die in the absence of less ammonia once establish. They just hibernate. Why they can exist in a bottle.

If I followed protocol. I’d be doing a massive WC to solve nitrates. That didn’t make sense to mean once I learned about carbon dosing which last setup was my first time taking that approach. It worked.

I’ll keep going with my protocol. Others can choose to ignore it. Yet the key take away being it works. Perhaps the manufacturer should consider my approach. It’s logically sound. Safest end result. Biological filter ready for just about anything. Best of all. I’ve never had a second cycle including when fish have died or I tipped the food bin more than practical.

Try it. I guarantee you it works. Plus testing will make sure one doesn’t add fish before it’s ready.

 

[GARRIGA]

Ok you want an answer - There is a certain level of ammonia - that even if added - a tank would never reach - thus there must be a level in between such that equals fish ammonia production and therefore the ability of toxicity.

For example drop a filefish in a totally fresh (no bacteria) into a 25,000 gallon swimming pool - hey what the heck add a tang - there will never be measurable ammonia in that system - barring another issue

But that’s not applicable to my approach. I added ammonia to produce 4 ppm and kept adding once it went to zero. At least based on what the test kit stated. Used API test strip. Not the titration and I validated those test strips by making my own reference sample. They are spot on.

 

[Antaguana]

Your no WC logo make sense now.

I'm always interested in hearing the different ways people do things. Always more to learn.

 

[GARRIGA]

Your no WC logo make sense now.

I'm always interested in hearing the different ways people do things. Always more to learn.

We stopped doing WC before I was born to solve ammonia and nitrite. Makes no sense to me that we still do to solve other concerns. Just need to find a way to solve everything without throwing out the baby with the bath water.

 

[Antaguana]

Hello.

But of an update.
I got a new bottle of bac. The ammonia has started coming down now (although still slower than I was expecting).

Diatoms are populating the sand and rocks.
There was a lot of gas (oxygen from reputation?) Coming off them yesterday afternoon. Probably 5 to 10 bubbles on their way up to the surface at any given time. Stops over night with no lights.

Would be grateful for any info / suggestions / reassurance.

 

[Antaguana]

So the diatoms have stopped respiration and are less "solid" covering now.
The ammonia is coming down and is at 0.21ppm now. I stopped testing Nitrite and Nitrate for now and will start testing them again when I have ammonia sorted (or I receive advice otherwise)

At this point I feel like the bottle bac has done nothing and I'm just doing a old style atmospheric bacteria start (just using NH4Cl instead of a prawn/shrimp)
I was really interested to see the test @taricha is doing. I noticed the Seachem did nothing in that setup (much like i think the seachem premium aquavitro is doing in mine).
I noticed @MnFish1 said that this is expected and it will be interesting to see if it is different with fish food. Is there something else in fish food that gets the bacteria going that NH4Cl doesn't? Do they only consume NH4Cl if they have some other chemical too? If, so what?

After reading the old test post from @Dr. Reef I wonder why anyone uses anything but fritz turbo start. So I went to get some and got my answer. It's not available in Australia (or Europe I believe) as it doesn't cope well with the transit and our markets are apparently not big enough to make it worth manufacturing here... Sigh, there are pros and cons to living in Australia. (mostly pros but being a long way from the rest of the world is a con when it comes to shipping and markets).

I did contact SeaChem support. They replied very quickly (<24 Hours) and provided a bunch of info. The only issue I have is that the info support provided directly contradicts their bottle and website.

2 examples:

1. Bottle and website says
"Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days." (Which no one seems to take seriously, except the newbies who are the only ones reading it!)
support says
"I want to clarify that seed won't reduce ammonia directly. Seed is only going to add bacteria to the system to jumpstart the cycle by seeding the bacterial colony (as opposed to just waiting for bacteria to get going on its own). In order to add fish on day one, and keep them safe, you'd want to add a conditioner such as Prime or alpha, to keep any ammonia detoxified until the cycle is complete and the biofilter gets it taken care of on it's own."

2."FAQ: Can seed be overdosed?​

It is very hard to overdose seed. You can really never have too much beneficial bacteria. The worst thing that could happen is a bacterial bloom in the water column, but this is rare and will clear on its own, should it occur."
Support says
"It's possible the overuse of seed can also be detrimental. Bacteria does not do very well floating around in the water column, it wants to settle down and reproduce on the biomedia. If the biomedia is solidly well occupied then some of that bacteria that has nowhere to go, may begin to die off. Decaying matter, even bacteria, produce ammonia. So in turn, adding too much beneficial bacteria can actually exacerbate ammonia issues.

They advised I should dose for 7 days and stop and monitor the Ammonia. The instructions do say dose X ml on day 1 and then X/2 ml for 7 days. I misread that thinking it was a simplification. I assumed they were saying after 7 days the colony will be established as a rule of thumb. Since I have evidence that my colony is not established I kept adding. They say it's not established but it is seeded. Although I argue if the space to occupy is all covered like they suggest then why is it not established and dealing with the ammonia? Are they covering all the rock and sand and media but building houses before they sit down to dinner? IF it's not all covered, how is adding more not going to just go to help cover the empty space? Am I missing something?

Anyway here is my updated data.

So now that the Ammonia is finally coming down I am trying to decide if I should follow @GARRIGA comment and add more NH4Cl back to 2 ppm and continue waiting for it to be able to drop that in 24 hours. 4ppm seems like I will be waiting 3 years, it would probably be 3 months but it would seem like 3 years.

Started with 12 drops. I think I ended with 120. Drops were added throughout the day. Each sequence after confirming past drops were resolved. You’d be amazed how fast ammonia converts once bacteria is established. Could have added fish after 9 days when nitrites were cycled. Ammonia took four days.

This is what makes me think there is something wrong. Mine is taking much longer and I must say, you are right I would (and will) be amazed at how fast ammonia converts once bacteria is established as I am not seeing that. Probably because the bacteria is not fully established but why not? I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Perhaps what I am missing is once you get to 2ppm in 24 hours the colony is well established and from there to 4ppm in 24 hours is only a doubling and bacteria like this can double in ~4-8 days once established (with food source and surface to cover). Although the SeaChem support answer would lead me to believe the surface is all covered, if that is right I don't see how I can ever get to 1ppm let alone 2 or 4ppm. (obviously I can as you have all proven it is possible).

Or @MnFish1 comment

(There is no reason to add more ammonia. I'm sorry to say. Unless you're using an odd protocol (post it?). In general once the tank can process 2 ppm ammonia it's good to go (in 24 hours). Correct me if I'm wrong.? According to at least one ammonia manufacturer - IMHO - its not as simple as they say - but they have a business I do not

How would I know it can process 2ppm in 24 hours if I don't add more? I mean obviously, it's not processing 2ppm in 24 hours now and I won't have anything to measure "soon" (tm). Or are you saying the same thing as @GARRIGA and it's just a difference of degrees? (Ie you are both saying I should keep add more NH4Cl until I get to 2ppm consumed in 24 hours and at that point @MnFish1 says good to go while @GARRIGA keeps pushing it until 4ppm in 24 Hours to be extra safe / robust?)

Any suggestions are most appreciated. If I am doing something stupid or misunderstanding something please tell me. I am more interested in learning where I am wrong than thinking I am right.

 

[twentyleagues]

So the diatoms have stopped respiration and are less "solid" covering now.
The ammonia is coming down and is at 0.21ppm now. I stopped testing Nitrite and Nitrate for now and will start testing them again when I have ammonia sorted (or I receive advice otherwise)

At this point I feel like the bottle bac has done nothing and I'm just doing a old style atmospheric bacteria start (just using NH4Cl instead of a prawn/shrimp)
I was really interested to see the test @taricha is doing. I noticed the Seachem did nothing in that setup (much like i think the seachem premium aquavitro is doing in mine).
I noticed @MnFish1 said that this is expected and it will be interesting to see if it is different with fish food. Is there something else in fish food that gets the bacteria going that NH4Cl doesn't? Do they only consume NH4Cl if they have some other chemical too? If, so what?

After reading the old test post from @Dr. Reef I wonder why anyone uses anything but fritz turbo start. So I went to get some and got my answer. It's not available in Australia (or Europe I believe) as it doesn't cope well with the transit and our markets are apparently not big enough to make it worth manufacturing here... Sigh, there are pros and cons to living in Australia. (mostly pros but being a long way from the rest of the world is a con when it comes to shipping and markets).

I did contact SeaChem support. They replied very quickly (<24 Hours) and provided a bunch of info. The only issue I have is that the info support provided directly contradicts their bottle and website.

2 examples:

1. Bottle and website says
"Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days." (Which no one seems to take seriously, except the newbies who are the only ones reading it!)
support says
"I want to clarify that seed won't reduce ammonia directly. Seed is only going to add bacteria to the system to jumpstart the cycle by seeding the bacterial colony (as opposed to just waiting for bacteria to get going on its own). In order to add fish on day one, and keep them safe, you'd want to add a conditioner such as Prime or alpha, to keep any ammonia detoxified until the cycle is complete and the biofilter gets it taken care of on it's own."

2."FAQ: Can seed be overdosed?​

It is very hard to overdose seed. You can really never have too much beneficial bacteria. The worst thing that could happen is a bacterial bloom in the water column, but this is rare and will clear on its own, should it occur."
Support says
"It's possible the overuse of seed can also be detrimental. Bacteria does not do very well floating around in the water column, it wants to settle down and reproduce on the biomedia. If the biomedia is solidly well occupied then some of that bacteria that has nowhere to go, may begin to die off. Decaying matter, even bacteria, produce ammonia. So in turn, adding too much beneficial bacteria can actually exacerbate ammonia issues.

They advised I should dose for 7 days and stop and monitor the Ammonia. The instructions do say dose X ml on day 1 and then X/2 ml for 7 days. I misread that thinking it was a simplification. I assumed they were saying after 7 days the colony will be established as a rule of thumb. Since I have evidence that my colony is not established I kept adding. They say it's not established but it is seeded. Although I argue if the space to occupy is all covered like they suggest then why is it not established and dealing with the ammonia? Are they covering all the rock and sand and media but building houses before they sit down to dinner? IF it's not all covered, how is adding more not going to just go to help cover the empty space? Am I missing something?

Anyway here is my updated data.

So now that the Ammonia is finally coming down I am trying to decide if I should follow @GARRIGA comment and add more NH4Cl back to 2 ppm and continue waiting for it to be able to drop that in 24 hours. 4ppm seems like I will be waiting 3 years, it would probably be 3 months but it would seem like 3 years.


This is what makes me think there is something wrong. Mine is taking much longer and I must say, you are right I would (and will) be amazed at how fast ammonia converts once bacteria is established as I am not seeing that. Probably because the bacteria is not fully established but why not? I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Perhaps what I am missing is once you get to 2ppm in 24 hours the colony is well established and from there to 4ppm in 24 hours is only a doubling and bacteria like this can double in ~4-8 days once established (with food source and surface to cover). Although the SeaChem support answer would lead me to believe the surface is all covered, if that is right I don't see how I can ever get to 1ppm let alone 2 or 4ppm. (obviously I can as you have all proven it is possible).

Or @MnFish1 comment

How would I know it can process 2ppm in 24 hours if I don't add more? I mean obviously, it's not processing 2ppm in 24 hours now and I won't have anything to measure "soon" (tm). Or are you saying the same thing as @GARRIGA and it's just a difference of degrees? (Ie you are both saying I should keep add more NH4Cl until I get to 2ppm consumed in 24 hours and at that point @MnFish1 says good to go while @GARRIGA keeps pushing it until 4ppm in 24 Hours to be extra safe / robust?)

Any suggestions are most appreciated. If I am doing something stupid or misunderstanding something please tell me. I am more interested in learning where I am wrong than thinking I am right.

I can answer 1 of the questions. Fish food adds an organic carbon source that the bacteria need to help them process the ammonia.
Anecdotally- I messed around adding po4 ( reef roids) during the nitrite phase and that seemed to speed along the process to nitrate. Was it more organic carbon or the po4 I'm unsure. I know I saw decreases a day later in my nitrite level after adding it.

 

[GARRIGA]

Can you obtain Dr Tim's One and Only or Bio-Spira in Australia? Both have worked for me in the past. Brightwell also has a starter pack but no experience. I've use Seachem but only to add a diversity of bacteria.

Check your salinity and if you can lower it that would help. I started with 12 ppt. With fish I believe 1.018 specific gravity works. Don't recall what that is in salinity. Temp was 82 but higher is better if plausible. In FW I cycled at 88 degrees.

all else fails. Prawn or damsel old school

 

[MnFish1]

So the diatoms have stopped respiration and are less "solid" covering now.
The ammonia is coming down and is at 0.21ppm now. I stopped testing Nitrite and Nitrate for now and will start testing them again when I have ammonia sorted (or I receive advice otherwise)

At this point I feel like the bottle bac has done nothing and I'm just doing a old style atmospheric bacteria start (just using NH4Cl instead of a prawn/shrimp)
I was really interested to see the test @taricha is doing. I noticed the Seachem did nothing in that setup (much like i think the seachem premium aquavitro is doing in mine).
I noticed @MnFish1 said that this is expected and it will be interesting to see if it is different with fish food. Is there something else in fish food that gets the bacteria going that NH4Cl doesn't? Do they only consume NH4Cl if they have some other chemical too? If, so what?

After reading the old test post from @Dr. Reef I wonder why anyone uses anything but fritz turbo start. So I went to get some and got my answer. It's not available in Australia (or Europe I believe) as it doesn't cope well with the transit and our markets are apparently not big enough to make it worth manufacturing here... Sigh, there are pros and cons to living in Australia. (mostly pros but being a long way from the rest of the world is a con when it comes to shipping and markets).

I did contact SeaChem support. They replied very quickly (<24 Hours) and provided a bunch of info. The only issue I have is that the info support provided directly contradicts their bottle and website.

2 examples:

1. Bottle and website says
"Fish and other aquatic species may be introduced at any time as long as dosage is maintained for 7 days." (Which no one seems to take seriously, except the newbies who are the only ones reading it!)
support says
"I want to clarify that seed won't reduce ammonia directly. Seed is only going to add bacteria to the system to jumpstart the cycle by seeding the bacterial colony (as opposed to just waiting for bacteria to get going on its own). In order to add fish on day one, and keep them safe, you'd want to add a conditioner such as Prime or alpha, to keep any ammonia detoxified until the cycle is complete and the biofilter gets it taken care of on it's own."

2."FAQ: Can seed be overdosed?​

It is very hard to overdose seed. You can really never have too much beneficial bacteria. The worst thing that could happen is a bacterial bloom in the water column, but this is rare and will clear on its own, should it occur."
Support says
"It's possible the overuse of seed can also be detrimental. Bacteria does not do very well floating around in the water column, it wants to settle down and reproduce on the biomedia. If the biomedia is solidly well occupied then some of that bacteria that has nowhere to go, may begin to die off. Decaying matter, even bacteria, produce ammonia. So in turn, adding too much beneficial bacteria can actually exacerbate ammonia issues.

They advised I should dose for 7 days and stop and monitor the Ammonia. The instructions do say dose X ml on day 1 and then X/2 ml for 7 days. I misread that thinking it was a simplification. I assumed they were saying after 7 days the colony will be established as a rule of thumb. Since I have evidence that my colony is not established I kept adding. They say it's not established but it is seeded. Although I argue if the space to occupy is all covered like they suggest then why is it not established and dealing with the ammonia? Are they covering all the rock and sand and media but building houses before they sit down to dinner? IF it's not all covered, how is adding more not going to just go to help cover the empty space? Am I missing something?

Anyway here is my updated data.

So now that the Ammonia is finally coming down I am trying to decide if I should follow @GARRIGA comment and add more NH4Cl back to 2 ppm and continue waiting for it to be able to drop that in 24 hours. 4ppm seems like I will be waiting 3 years, it would probably be 3 months but it would seem like 3 years.


This is what makes me think there is something wrong. Mine is taking much longer and I must say, you are right I would (and will) be amazed at how fast ammonia converts once bacteria is established as I am not seeing that. Probably because the bacteria is not fully established but why not? I don't know what I'm doing wrong.
Perhaps what I am missing is once you get to 2ppm in 24 hours the colony is well established and from there to 4ppm in 24 hours is only a doubling and bacteria like this can double in ~4-8 days once established (with food source and surface to cover). Although the SeaChem support answer would lead me to believe the surface is all covered, if that is right I don't see how I can ever get to 1ppm let alone 2 or 4ppm. (obviously I can as you have all proven it is possible).

Or @MnFish1 comment

How would I know it can process 2ppm in 24 hours if I don't add more? I mean obviously, it's not processing 2ppm in 24 hours now and I won't have anything to measure "soon" (tm). Or are you saying the same thing as @GARRIGA and it's just a difference of degrees? (Ie you are both saying I should keep add more NH4Cl until I get to 2ppm consumed in 24 hours and at that point @MnFish1 says good to go while @GARRIGA keeps pushing it until 4ppm in 24 Hours to be extra safe / robust?)

Any suggestions are most appreciated. If I am doing something stupid or misunderstanding something please tell me. I am more interested in learning where I am wrong than thinking I am right.

There is a lot to unpack here - but - Depending on the type of bacteria you're putting in, you may need a source of Phosphate. As to the actual amount of ammonia to add - the standard with Dr Tims (I believe) is processing 2 ppm/24 hours. I do not know the protocol suggested by the bacteria you're using. Additionally - you need to make sure that the ammonia you're measuring is 'correct'. In my experiment - using drops of Dr Tims ammonia - overdosed ammonia - such that in the start - the ammonia was >5 as compared to 2 ppm.

I have used Stability - added it daily for 7 days (many many times) - and added fish on day 1. I would not add prime, etc.

I am curious - what is your ammonia now?

 

[MnFish1]

PPS - No offense to Seachem - I would tend to use Fritz 9000 or 900 for myself. BTW - it would be uncommon for a small bioload of fish to produce 2 ppm ammonia/day (assuming you're not overfeeding, etc) - which is why people say its 'safe' to add fish once the tank can process 2 ppm/24 hours.

 

[twentyleagues]

I used brightwells xlm on this new tank. It took about a week before I added the rest of the bottle and some fish food before I saw any type of ammonia drop. After that it was pretty fast. Did I not shake the bottle up enough to get bacteria in the first dosage or was it the addition of fish food and the overdose of bacteria? I dont know. The directions state that 7 days after starting you will see the ammonia at 0 or close to, that was not the case. I gave the tank 3-4 days at 5ppm of nitrite before I added the roids next day I had 2ppm. I waited a day and still 2 ppm added more roids a day later it was just slightly registering nitrite. Added more roids got 0 nitrite a day later. Redosed ammonia product and anther dose of roids was 0 ammonia 0 nitrite ands about 20 ppm nitrate 2 days later. Added a fish and checked weekly for 2 weeks no ammonia or nitrite. Added 3 more fish (one jumped on top of my oh so clever overflow cover I didnt notice ) no ammonia or nitrite. Completely "cycled" in about 20 days.

 

[Antaguana]

I'll try to answer all your questions.


Fritz, biospira, and dr Tim's all look like they are available online in Australia but can't see it in shops. Perhaps that's just online shops taking the gamble that it will do OK for short periods in transit.

Salinity is stable between 34.8 and 35.

Yes there is a lot to unpack. Sorry. I'm having a hard time working it all out. Thanks for helping!

The ammonia I am using is NH4Cl, can't remember the brand.. deap Pacific or something. Has a little octopus on it from memory. I did the calcs based on the bottle to get 2ppm and got a little less when I tested it. So pretty sure I have not over dosed it.

I'm testing the amount of ammonia white the Hanna master tester.

The bacteria is aquavitro seed (their website says it is the same as seachem stability but improved with some extra bacterial strains that where not available when they designed the stability.) Does this one need phosphate?

If so, What is the best way to add phosphate and how much should I be looking for (pretty sure my Hanna tests kit does that so I can test it)? Will ghost feeding do that? Is reef roids better? Should I look at adding some snails or hermit crabs or something??

It's so upsetting that there is not good info on this. All the guides say use a prawn or bottle bac and NH4Cl.. why don't they mention phosphate if that's important? Why do people say food is the old way use NH4Cl if food is better cos it has the other things needed? Usually they say food is too uncontrollable (which I agree with) but it's not helpful to have something that is controllable that doesn't work.

 

[GARRIGA]

Had to use phosphates to lower nitrates with NoPox and used Brightwell NeoPhos although @Randy Holmes-Farley can suggest better purity through Amazon or local lab suppliers. I've never personally used phosphates otherwise and been cycling salt since the 80s both old school damsel and now in a bottle. With Bio-Spira, I solved ammonia and nitrites with just ammonium chloride. Same with Dr Tim's as well as damsels.

Don't know about Hanna for ammonia but I'm sure it's accurate. I used the API ammonia test strips and validated by creating my own reference solution using ammonium chloride from Dr Tim's. Have two bottles from different years and both have different consistency as I need a different amount of drops to obtain the same 2 ppm. For redundancy, might want to try the API strips but only for ammonia. There other strips I used purely to determine presence or absence of nitrites and nitrates as it took less than a minute to dip and obtain color change or not and precision not needed. As most know. API reagent ammonia test kit always shows ammonia even if absent. No experience and just regurgitating others on that.

One other test I rely on is Seachem Ammonia alert. Using it right now on my test tank. Have always gotten accurate results via validation but it only show toxic ammonia vs total ammonia, if I recall correctly. I know Seachem has a reagent test that only test toxic ammonia. For cycling I'm concerned with solving both although as you likely already know. Ph affects equilibrium between toxic and non toxic.

If damsels becomes a necessity and clowns will be kept eventually but not wanting damsels then those could be used. Same family and same tolerance. Granted many believe this is cruel but how we did it before knowing better and I never killed a damsel cycling nor saw any distress or illness. Never heard of others saying otherwise, either. Eels and groupers were another species used to cycle larger tanks. Prawn the most humane although boring just like ammonia in a bottle yet takes as long as damsels in alleged distress.