Worms? For feeding

Lowstorm · Dec 21, 2016

I think this topic is more or less for asking @Paul B about his cultures.

I'd like to start feeding my tank worms. I am definitely going to get some whites, but I don't want to do blacks. Looking more into what I can keep in shoeboxes under the tank or my sink, and will reproduce easily.

I was thinking of grindal worms. They're smaller and the care is similar to the white worms.

There's also micro worms. Live in oatmeal, very tiny. Maybe an alternative for bbs? Not sure though... and yes, I know these are a nematode not a worm!

And then, how do you gut load the worms? Feed them fish food instead of baby oatmeal, or mix the foods together so they eat both? I don't even know if it is possible to gut load the micro worms.

Hopefully others who have questions about feeding worms to saltwater fish can ask here too.

laga77 · Dec 21, 2016

What do you have against black worms? They are great. Forget about the Grindal and micro worms for saltwater unless you are raising fry. They are just too small. I never had any success getting white worms to eat fish food. I stick with crackers and potato flakes. You are feeding the worms to get the benefits of the bacteria and fat contained in them. Feed other foods like oysters or clams and salmon to get the benefits of vitamins and HUFA needed for marine fish. You need a variety of foods for a balanced diet.

Lowstorm · Dec 21, 2016

I had to do blackworms before with Indian puffers. I'd much rather keep something in a smaller container under the tank. And the fridge is just... Nope. At least not the blacks.

Grindals seem the perfect size for gobies. Which I love, love, love.

Paul B · Dec 22, 2016

I only use black worms although I still have a culture of white worms. I think they are both the same nutritionally but I am not a worm nutritionist. I have been feeding blackworms since the 60s. There is no need to gut load worms, they have enough in them already. Blackworms are filter feeders and suck in whatever is in the water so you can't really gut load them. If you look at them under a microscope, they just pump water through their bodies, not really storing much of anything.

sundog101 · Dec 22, 2016

I've been trying to order some blackworms, but there seems to be a blackworm shortage (if there is such a thing)

laga77 · Dec 22, 2016

It is some what of a push on the nutritional value of the worms. Black worms have more protein and less fat than white worms and white worms have more fat than protein compared to black worms. Given that fish need fat more than protein you might say white worms are better. I have found it extremely labor intensive to have a colony of white worms big enough to support more than a couple of fish. Black worms are easy to keep and I have an easy supply nearby.

Lowstorm · Dec 23, 2016

My issue is that I have to order everything online and there is nothing in my area big enough for either. My dad used to breed fw angels and I helped with the white worms back in the 80s so actually kinda know what to do with them

Paul B · Dec 23, 2016

sundog101 said:
I've been trying to order some blackworms, but there seems to be a blackworm shortage (if there is such a thing)

It is not so much a shortage of worms, but a shortage of water in California. For some reason they want to use the water for people and not worms. But it is true, for a few weeks they are hard to get.

laga77 said:
It is some what of a push on the nutritional value of the worms. Black worms have more protein and less fat than white worms and white worms have more fat than protein compared to black worms. Given that fish need fat more than protein you might say white worms are better. I have found it extremely labor intensive to have a colony of white worms big enough to support more than a couple of fish. Black worms are easy to keep and I have an easy supply nearby.

It is not so much about the nutritional value of the worms as it is about the live bacteria in the worms.

115lol · Dec 31, 2016

can someone please link me to this article
this is so fascinating

sundog101 · Dec 31, 2016

Here is Paul's article
http://www.saltwatersmarts.com/feeding-blackworms-healthy-marine-fish-whiteworms-3124/

philfree · Dec 31, 2016

so, frozen black worms, like San Fransisco Bay brand. Good or no good.
I know live is better but , what say you on feeding marine fish this brand of frozen?

EDIT: Oops, nevermind. Read the article and PaulB wrote:
"Do they have to be live?
For some reason, frozen and freeze-dried worms don’t offer fish the same benefits that live worms do. Also, “bloodworms” are not really worms at all and are, in my opinion, useless for saltwater fish."

yea, i guess i was thinking of "bloodworms"...

sundog101 · Dec 31, 2016

I would think feeding frozen blackworms would be better than feeding no blackworms. Fish don't go near as crazy for frozen though.

Lionfish Lair · Dec 31, 2016

Paul B said:
It is not so much about the nutritional value of the worms as it is about the live bacteria in the worms.

I'd like to read a little about the bacteria found in the worms. Could you direct me to a source for information?

Paul B · Jan 1, 2017

Yes Lionfish Lair, the thread on immunity here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a-discussion-on-immunity.209701/
The first post has links to this and goes into the importants of bacteria and there are other links throughout the thread.
And Happy New Year.

Lionfish Lair · Jan 1, 2017

Is there a reference specific to blackworms and the bacteria found in their gut in that thread? I'm not seeing it.

Be careful of keeping them too long. In one study after they were kept 28 days and they had already lost half of their lipid profile. Also be careful of the water you keep them in because they absorb everything. Whatever is in your water, they too will have.

Paul B · Jan 1, 2017

No, there is no reference to blackworms so you won't find that.
I don't keep the worms in the fridge. I keep them alive, healthy and well fed in a worm keeper that I designed so they keep their compliment of live bacteria.
I have been keeping and feeding live worms since the 60s. In those days we we would breed freshwater fish the first instruction was to use live foods. I would collect daphnia and worms and buy blackworms.
I have been reading for quite a few years about new research on live bacteria in the gut and how it stimulates the immune system to keep their immunity up.
As I am sure you know from the immunity thread, my fish have been immune for decades and I am "guessing" the live bacteria in the worms and clams I feed is the key.
When I started keeping blus devils in the 70s I got them to spawn by feeding live blackworms for 7 weeks.

Lionfish Lair · Jan 1, 2017

I'm not saying blackworms are not beneficial, as I myself have used them for years. I wouldn't attribute their benefits to bacteria, however, if I don't even know if such a thing exists in any beneficial form. That's a bit of a stretch.

laga77 · Jan 1, 2017

Paul B said:
As I am sure you know from the immunity thread, my fish have been immune for decades and I am "guessing" the live bacteria in the worms and clams I feed is the key..

That is called the "sphincter retrieval" method.