I get it this product should just cost 50 cents even though there is no other product like it out there that you can buy. So many armchair engineers in here. Why should abyss charge 1800 for a DC pump when you can get one for 20 bucks.
Would you invest a grand for a KH Guardian?
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iiluisii
2500 Club Member
What is the warranty on an abyzz pump??
Waterjockey
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I don't know how many "armchair engineers" are in here, but I suspect a lot of 9-5 ones are. Some of us have designed and comissioned automated control systems in the multi-millions of dollar range projects. Me included.
This is a cool bit of apparatus, but it isn't a marvel of engineering. If the actual accuracy for the "standard" unit is +- 0.33 kKh, then it still needs development, it's not ready for market, as that kind of accuracy won't cut it, when you can get superior performance from a $50 Hanna unit.
Slow down on insulting your audience my friend, they may be far more qualified than you to comment on it's level of development thus far
Last I checked this does more than a $50 Hanna but whatever. Don't even know why manufacturers even come out with products for this hobby when everyone just complains about everything. Enjoy not buying the product which you weren't planning on buying in the first place. I'm sure the maker of this device and coralvue are going to lose tons of sleep over it.I don't know how many "armchair engineers" are in here, but I suspect a lot of 9-5 ones are. Some of us have designed and comissioned automated control systems in the multi-millions of dollar range projects. Me included.
This is a cool bit of apparatus, but it isn't a marvel of engineering. If the actual accuracy for the "standard" unit is +- 0.33 kKh, then it still needs development, it's not ready for market, as that kind of accuracy won't cut it, when you can get superior performance from a $50 Hanna unit.
Slow down on insulting your audience my friend, they may be far more qualified than you to comment on it's level of development thus far
Let's keep this civil please, it has been a pretty good discussion for the most part. This thread looks to be created to get some feedback. There's always going to be positive and negative. Let's not have the mods get involved.
Waterjockey
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It automates testing of alk. I get that. And it will adjust dosing of alk based on the result. I get that. But if it is true that the accuracy of the standard unit is +- 0.33 dkH, then I think you have to realise, many people aren't going to consider that level of accuracy useful.
If I buy a $2000 laser alignment tool, I expect its accuracy to be at least in the ballpark of a $100 micrometer set.
If I need to measure something in thousands of an inch, an automatic tool that is only accurate to a quarter of an inch isn't particularly useful, automatic or not. There is no need to be so defensive to critical feedback. Again, it does the developer a great disservice to say "wow that's great", but not buy it.....and fail to tell him/her *why* you wouldn't buy it. At least if the developer hears the perceived issues his/her target audience has with it, they can act on that feedback and refine the product to answer those concerns. In my humble opinion, those that have provided thoughtful criticism have contributed more value to the developer than those who haven't.
NeverlosT
SPS nut
Is the controlling output simply an outlet that is off or on (to run a dosing pump) or is it a 0-10v signal?
0-10V might be nice, could be used to tell an apex when to dose alk via a breakout box, or to control a calcium reactor peristaltic pump, or to control the speed of a fancier doser.
I like the injection molded housing of this device, I think it looks professional. I agree with some of the comments above, one of the tricks in this hobby is to make something great, price it so that it sells, and then improve on it. The alternative is to price yourself out of appreciable sales, then get reverse engineered or scooped by a copycat. Invent, release, profit, innovate, and repeat.
I do a lot of manufacturing in Taiwan, and we make complex gadgets for significantly less than 1K USD sales price. Profit is profit, but understand that ecotech wouldn't have sold many vortechs if they were 1K a piece, and abyzz currently isn't selling many pumps at 2K a piece. In fact, thats a good philosophical question: Who has made more money in the last year, waveline or Abyzz? We won't ever know, but I'd bet you a kings ransom that waveline is ahead by a factor of 10 or more. Understanding your market is key, and this thread was a great idea to improve that understanding.
0-10V might be nice, could be used to tell an apex when to dose alk via a breakout box, or to control a calcium reactor peristaltic pump, or to control the speed of a fancier doser.
I like the injection molded housing of this device, I think it looks professional. I agree with some of the comments above, one of the tricks in this hobby is to make something great, price it so that it sells, and then improve on it. The alternative is to price yourself out of appreciable sales, then get reverse engineered or scooped by a copycat. Invent, release, profit, innovate, and repeat.
I do a lot of manufacturing in Taiwan, and we make complex gadgets for significantly less than 1K USD sales price. Profit is profit, but understand that ecotech wouldn't have sold many vortechs if they were 1K a piece, and abyzz currently isn't selling many pumps at 2K a piece. In fact, thats a good philosophical question: Who has made more money in the last year, waveline or Abyzz? We won't ever know, but I'd bet you a kings ransom that waveline is ahead by a factor of 10 or more. Understanding your market is key, and this thread was a great idea to improve that understanding.
kschweer
Moderator
While I think this product is very cool and may simplify things I do think the price is too high. I also think this quote sums things up nicely:
It seems like once Jim Welsh's alk tester was unveiled other companies rushed their products to market whether they were ready or not.
It seems like once Jim Welsh's alk tester was unveiled other companies rushed their products to market whether they were ready or not.
I'm really excited about a lot of features in this unit but I'm also dissappointed in the two tier software approach. I can't imagine someone who is interested in the product knowingly choosing the lower accuracy version, but maybe I'm missing something there. I am never thrilled when I pay a premium to tune something to get the engineering potential on day one, that always feel like it should be a basic feature, not an upgrade.
Bugger
Well-Known Member
This is honestly a must have for anybody with a tank. Eventually everybody neglects there tank and there on the this site with the title MY TANK IS CRASHING everything is dying. you may have kept you tank for years maybe your a hermit with no life but once you do get a life your tank will become second to your life and things will change. It can happen to anyone this invention is ground breaking.
NeverlosT
SPS nut
Geez there is so much mildly insulting about this post it is amazing.
There are plenty of people that don't neglect their tanks and have fulfilling and great lives. Do not insinuate that those with flourishing tanks will someday "get a life".
I don't mean to be blunt, but my pet peeve is people that post in ultimatums (especially on reef forums) who know little about which they speak.
Also, my understanding is that this is not a new invention, it is an introduction of this machine/style of testing to our hobby.
This product has been in development and use for 4 years by hobbyist in China and there are threads on RC about it.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=24048660&highlight=dr+bridge#post24048660
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2473045
Jim's device had nothing to do with them "rushing " this unit out. They have had it for sale already. I had inquired about buying one 6 months ago. and had gotten the pricing. I was hoping for a US importer to pick it up. As I would like to deal with some one in the US on the device.
Dumaurier7
Well-Known Member
An invention of this nature , not necessarily THIS invention .
JonasRoman
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I am convinced that the market needs and are very ready for a KH-measuring-machine, BUT, it is a demand to do a machine with reasonable price, low running cost, nice accuracy and precision, and some intelligent regulatory functions. But of course nothing is impossible. I think we will meet a new era now when this soon will be a reality. The future will tell.
eg8r210
Well-Known Member
This is a great product for our hobby and I see "well to do" reefers that haven't already spent a ton of money on dosing equipment to certainly jump on this, and to a drastically smaller group of "well to do" reefers that just like to buy the next newest thing on the market. I am convinced for a lot less money, and only the monitoring system, it would sell really well. To me a difference between a regular version and a pro version would NOT be the accuracy of the "monitor" but rather the inclusion of the doser. Regular and Pro should both be as accurate as possible. Offer one the monitor separate and one with the doser and I think your audience opens up considerably.
skydancer
Community Member
a $1000 continuous ALK monitor is very useful especially for SPS keepers, as long as it is integrated to a controller. (Apex). The dosing is unessesary and frankly dangerous.
First we need to understand intraday alk fluctuations, before we take any action on dosing. Even suplemental dosing. A large SPS tank more than likely has a CaRX and kalk stirrer, etc.
Great product, but leave the dosing out.
First we need to understand intraday alk fluctuations, before we take any action on dosing. Even suplemental dosing. A large SPS tank more than likely has a CaRX and kalk stirrer, etc.
Great product, but leave the dosing out.
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