Would you invest a grand for a KH Guardian?

[shih87]

a $1000 continuous ALK monitor is very useful especially for SPS keepers, as long as it is integrated to a controller. (Apex). The dosing is unessesary and frankly dangerous.
First we need to understand intraday alk fluctuations, before we take any action on dosing. Even suplemental dosing. A large SPS tank more than likely has a CaRX and kalk stirrer, etc.
Great product, but leave the dosing out.

I can't agree you more.

BTW, Reefwiser link my tank on RC to this thread but I have a correction to make. My tank is in Taiwan and KHG is mainly tested in Taiwan instead of China. KHG + Apex Fusion (Apex DoS specifically) is the major reason my tank can correct some human mistake when I was not around and avoid tank crush a few times.

 

[danmhippo]

KHG + Apex Fusion (Apex DoS specifically) is the major reason my tank can correct some human mistake when I was not around and avoid tank crush a few times.

Shih, what is your current setup?

Is it Apex DOS making majority of the dosing and let KHG making the finer adjustments?
OR, are you leaving the dosing function off on KHG completely, and rely on solely on other dosers to do KH dosing?

If it is the latter, then I am assuming you have to find a way to remotely access your home network and check on the value of the KHG right? (Since KHG currently is not connectable to Apex)
So for a network dummy like me, and I do not know how to setup a remote access back door on my home network, leaving the dosing function off on the KHG is out of question. If I want an expensive gadget, I want it to do everything for me instead of keeping me busy when I am on biz trips and constantly checking back to see what value the KH is and making adjustments to the Apex side. I would prefer very much if one day KHG value can be linked up to Apex, just like a temp or salinity module (PM2), and one glance at the Apex fusion main page is all I have to do.

 

[iiluisii]

I can't agree you more.

BTW, Reefwiser link my tank on RC to this thread but I have a correction to make. My tank is in Taiwan and KHG is mainly tested in Taiwan instead of China. KHG + Apex Fusion (Apex DoS specifically) is the major reason my tank can correct some human mistake when I was not around and avoid tank crush a few times.

How can you correct human mistakes when you are not around with an accuracy of 0.33 your tank would be swinging Alk like crazy daily if you are relying on this to dose your Alk.

Are the dosing pumps steppers or not? The only way this could be worth some what that much is if the unit had stepper motors for example a vertex libra with stepper motors are $650 retail and it has a controller with a touch screen. A ph probe cost would be around $25 retail that would leave $325 open for what ever I didn't include.

So no is not worth the money the way they are offering this at this time.

 

[shih87]

Shih, what is your current setup?

Is it Apex DOS making majority of the dosing and let KHG making the finer adjustments?
OR, are you leaving the dosing function off on KHG completely, and rely on solely on other dosers to do KH dosing?

If it is the latter, then I am assuming you have to find a way to remotely access your home network and check on the value of the KHG right? (Since KHG currently is not connectable to Apex)
So for a network dummy like me, and I do not know how to setup a remote access back door on my home network, leaving the dosing function off on the KHG is out of question. If I want an expensive gadget, I want it to do everything for me instead of keeping me busy when I am on biz trips and constantly checking back to see what value the KH is and making adjustments to the Apex side. I would prefer very much if one day KHG value can be linked up to Apex, just like a temp or salinity module (PM2), and one glance at the Apex fusion main page is all I have to do.

I have same concept like Skydacer that I would not plan to use KHG to correct or even supplemental dosing for at least next 12 months.
Yes, I did use some basic network knowledge (e.g. port forwarding, DDNS, etc..) to remotely check KHG reading, and use Apex fusion to remote control Apex DoS dosing volume. I understand it is easy for some but challenge for others, that is why I concur Skydancer....Integrated to a controller (e.g. Apex) or simplify its network part like MQTT enable.

 

[danmhippo]

How can you correct human mistakes when you are not around with an accuracy of 0.33 your tank would be swinging Alk like crazy daily if you are relying on this to dose your Alk.

Are the dosing pumps steppers or not? The only way this could be worth some what that much is if the unit had stepper motors for example a vertex libra with stepper motors are $650 retail and it has a controller with a touch screen. A ph probe cost would be around $25 retail that would leave $325 open for what ever I didn't include.

So no is not worth the money the way they are offering this at this time.

It is obvious you dislike KHG's 0.33dKH variance.

I just looked up on the Hanna checker webpage: http://hannainst.com/hi755-alkalinity-saltwater.html
It says on their page that the accuracy of the Hanna checker HI-755 is
Accuracy @ 25°C/77°F = ±5 ppm (mg/L) ±5% of reading
Since 1 dKH = 17.848 ppm alkalinity, that means the accuracy of the Hanna checker is +/- 0.28 dKH (+/- 5%)

Hanna checker accuracy variance is 0.28 dKH
KHG is 0.33 dKH
Difference of the two is 0.05 dKH. Can you even tell 0.05 dKH from typical test kits?
............and I can't even find accuracy statement on the Salifert web page

So what is your point?

(It would be great if alkalinity monitor/controller can have better accuracy then the Hanna checker, but I don't know if affordable technology can achieve it.)

 

[iiluisii]

It is obvious you dislike KHG's 0.33dKH variance.

I just looked up on the Hanna checker webpage: http://hannainst.com/hi755-alkalinity-saltwater.html
It says on their page that the accuracy of the Hanna checker HI-755 is
Accuracy @ 25°C/77°F = ±5 ppm (mg/L) ±5% of reading
Since 1 dKH = 17.848 ppm alkalinity, that means the accuracy of the Hanna checker is +/- 0.28 dKH (+/- 5%)

Hanna checker accuracy variance is 0.28 dKH
KHG is 0.33 dKH
Difference of the two is 0.05 dKH. Can you even tell 0.05 dKH from typical test kits?
............and I can't even find accuracy statement on the Salifert web page

So what is your point?

(It would be great if alkalinity monitor/controller can have better accuracy then the Hanna checker, but I don't know if affordable technology can achieve it.)

My point is that the Hana checker is only $25. lol

 

[danmhippo]

My point is that the Hana checker is only $25. lol

Huh.......I thought you kept attacking on the accuracy issue in many of your previous posts. OK, fine, even if your REAL point is the cost not the accuracy, Hanna is useless if you are a frequent travel type of people like me.

If you just want a $25 Hanna Checker or something in the ball park price range, then I guess you would have said the same for Mindstream or even Jim Welsh's.

As I said before, KHG, or continuous type of alkalinity monitor is not for everyone, and certainly not for people that just want a $25 test kit.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

This is honestly a must have for anybody with a tank.

I agree with the previous criticism of this post that insinuates that everyone with a life will neglect their tanks and those with stellar tanks are hermits. That's REALLY insulting to many awesome people that I am blessed to know. ...but I'll move on to my real point...

You say this is a "must have." I'd actually place this kind of device in the same luxury equipment category as a controller. It's not essential for reefkeeping as there are other ways of measuring and dosing far less expensively. (I'd also remind you that until now EVERYONE who has successfully kept a reef has done it without anything like this device.) However, it might make life easier.

My second point is that this isn't the only device getting ready to come to market that will do this kind of work. There are at least 2 companies developing stand-alone monitors (both of which monitor far more than Alk and have the monitoring available via cloud for easy remote access), and both Neptune and GHL are working on integrating Alk monitoring technology with developers which gives possibly 2 OTHER options which will integrate with their controllers. So this is 1 of 5 possible options in the works, so anyone researching this ought to look at all of their options. (The 5 options I'm aware of are: 1) KH Guardian, 2) Midstream, 3) Reefbot, 4) Neptune/Jim Welsh's device, 5) GHL's alk monitor.) Even if half of the ones I mention never make it to market, it's still only 1 out of 3 options...and that's still with this technology in the innovation stage, once we move forward to early adopters, you'll likely see more people using the innovation already done to create even more options.

This is a great product for our hobby and I see "well to do" reefers that haven't already spent a ton of money on dosing equipment to certainly jump on this, and to a drastically smaller group of "well to do" reefers that just like to buy the next newest thing on the market. I am convinced for a lot less money, and only the monitoring system, it would sell really well. To me a difference between a regular version and a pro version would NOT be the accuracy of the "monitor" but rather the inclusion of the doser. Regular and Pro should both be as accurate as possible. Offer one the monitor separate and one with the doser and I think your audience opens up considerably.

I absolutely agree with this post! If the only difference between standard and pro is software, I hope the manufacturer will consider putting their best foot forward and pulling substandard software off the market (most companies provide free software upgrades for their equipment when new and better versions are available). I love the suggestion that a "pro" version should be set apart not by software, but by better bells and whistles (in this case, the automated dosing).

Great point!! I will keep it in our discussion with develping droup.

This post makes me happy!! I'm glad to see you guys are open to these types of suggestions, and please know that even with the suggestions/criticisms, most of us are very appreciative for the work you and others are putting in to develop these types of products.

 

[iiluisii]

Huh.......I thought you kept attacking on the accuracy issue in many of your previous posts. OK, fine, even if your REAL point is the cost not the accuracy, Hanna is useless if you are a frequent travel type of people like me.

If you just want a $25 Hanna Checker or something in the ball park price range, then I guess you would have said the same for Mindstream or even Jim Welsh's.

As I said before, KHG, or continuous type of alkalinity monitor is not for everyone, and certainly not for people that just want a $25 test kit.

Yes attacking the accuracy. I can deal with the accuracy of the Hana due to its price. Now can you imagine if Hana would build a checker for a near perfect accuracy I would see maybe $75 to $100 from them.

Now again like I stated before I do travel a lot also and my fiancé has become a champ using the Hana checker. Anyways I leave it at this I respect your opinion on the product and I hope that it works great for you and your tank.

 

[danmhippo]

Yes, I agree it would be great if something come along in the future that can offer the same funtionality and comparable accuracy, for a LOT less price. Before that happens, I will have to use whatever is out there on the market.

For the records, I am not very satisfied with the beta unit I received years ago. Although I am still using it, I think there are still rooms for improvement.

Lastly, not everyone has a spouse that supports our hobby. I envy that.

 

[reefwiser]

I would hold my breath for something cheaper to come out by any other the other companies. This is not a simple task to automate such a task.

 

[tj w]

I understand both sides of the points made here for the most part. It seems if the monitor and the doser could be split up, there would be a lot more interest here. Also, even if the others that are coming to market as well may not be cheaper they will have a lot more options come with, esp Neptune. It seems Neptune will be able to provide all of the controllability as well as integrate the dosing aspect as well. Will the KHG be able to connect to any other controllers? Seems they could make this product much more reasonably priced without all of the other functions it has not incorporated.

 

[shih87]

How can you correct human mistakes when you are not around with an accuracy of 0.33 your tank would be swinging Alk like crazy daily if you are relying on this to dose your Alk.

Are the dosing pumps steppers or not? The only way this could be worth some what that much is if the unit had stepper motors for example a vertex libra with stepper motors are $650 retail and it has a controller with a touch screen. A ph probe cost would be around $25 retail that would leave $325 open for what ever I didn't include.

So no is not worth the money the way they are offering this at this time.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ....I love my KHG, and I respect your choose for voteing NO on current KHG.
I too envy you have a spouse support your hobby, plus I like to travel a few times a year with whole family for weeks.

Even 0.33 dKH accuracy can help you remotely, not hard at all. When something wrong and Alkalinity keep dropping then I correct my dosing volume on my Apex DoS. If you want to check what kind of human mistake I made and true story, you can check my link at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24781433&postcount=794

BTW, the beta KHG I have is set at 0.1dkH sensitivity, not 0.33dKH sensitivity.

 

[tj w]

You must have the pro version shih87

 

[shih87]

You must have the pro version shih87

You bet... Haha...
But again, I only use monitoring function, not the correction function. On my human mistake case (forget to turn on Apex DoS), supplemental dosing on KHG won't help anyway....

 

[Dumaurier7]

I would hold my breath for something cheaper to come out by any other the other companies. This is not a simple task to automate such a task.

How do you know this ? What are u basing this on ? Propaganda is a serious thing !

 

[reefwiser]

Knowing things about things.NDA

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I understand both sides of the points made here for the most part. It seems if the monitor and the doser could be split up, there would be a lot more interest here. Also, even if the others that are coming to market as well may not be cheaper they will have a lot more options come with, esp Neptune. It seems Neptune will be able to provide all of the controllability as well as integrate the dosing aspect as well. Will the KHG be able to connect to any other controllers? Seems they could make this product much more reasonably priced without all of the other functions it has not incorporated.

I think this post sums a whole lot of the issues raised in this thread very well. It's not that this isn't a decent option or good tech. It is! But with more options soon to be available that either A) monitor other things in addition to alk or B) allow full controller integration, the price point seems too high. The monitors NOT integrated with controllers (at this point) that will test multiple params are both projected to retail for under a grand, so it won't make sense for me to pay $1k for something that another device that costs less will also do with multiple parameters (btw, I still maintain that the automated doser isn't going to be a huge selling point since most of us just need the monitor and wouldn't trust automated dosing based on automated testing...at least not yet). I don't know where Neptune and GHL are planning to price their alk monitor options, but even if they match the price of $1k (I doubt they will price it that high, but I could be mistaken...and I wouldn't pay $1k for theirs either), the integration with their controllers makes that a more understandable move as it offers more customization and operating options (since the alk measurements could also be factored into other operations of the controller). This is just my opinion, and I do respect that there are others in here who disagree with me...isn't our diversity of opinions part of what makes this a great hobby?

 

[iiluisii]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ....I love my KHG, and I respect your choose for voteing NO on current KHG.
I too envy you have a spouse support your hobby, plus I like to travel a few times a year with whole family for weeks.

Even 0.33 dKH accuracy can help you remotely, not hard at all. When something wrong and Alkalinity keep dropping then I correct my dosing volume on my Apex DoS. If you want to check what kind of human mistake I made and true story, you can check my link at http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24781433&postcount=794

BTW, the beta KHG I have is set at 0.1dkH sensitivity, not 0.33dKH sensitivity.

Are you beta testing the unit free?

 

[Dumaurier7]

Knowing things about things.NDA

Really? please ! For $1k I think we all would like something more substantial.