Yikes...high nitrate

[beaslbob]

I don't understand what you are saying.

If algae takes up one nitrogen atom in the form of nitrate, there is 1 less nitrate ion present.

If algae takes takes up one nitrogen atom in the form of ammonia, there is 1 less ammonia molecule present, and since it converts nearly 1:1 into nitrate, there will be 1 less nitrate ion present.

Nobody says I can talk clearly. and an old professor of mine at a celebration of my undergraduate student advisor all the sudden said "oh I remember you-- you had a weird way of thinking."
so I guess I had a weird way of thinking the is memorable after 45 years. LOL

It not an all or nothing type thing. In a brand new sterile tank with no organics or bacteria sure macros would prevent any nitrates by consuming all the ammonia.

But in an established tank where there is a sudden change, bacteria is still there consuming ammonia and the macros are consume the ammonia above that level. So nitrates are still being generate and at the same level as before the change. but no the macros are getting nitrogen from the ammonia and not just the nitrates. Therefore the nitrate will rise.

FWIW I see this all the time in my macro controlled tanks and planted Fw as well. little or no ammonia spikes but an initial nitrate spike. Yet the fish do just fine.

an example from an old 20gfw planted. (hopefully is shows up. LOL)

http://s492.photobucket.com/user/beaslebob/media/aquariums/20 FW Leiden/fwleiden.jpg.html]

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or perhaps this. (can't see it at work LOL)

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well that didn't work either. LOL

my .02

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nobody says I can talk clearly. and an old professor of mine at a celebration of my undergraduate student advisor all the sudden said "oh I remember you-- you had a weird way of thinking."
so I guess I had a weird way of thinking the is memorable after 45 years. LOL

It not an all or nothing type thing. In a brand new sterile tank with no organics or bacteria sure macros would prevent any nitrates by consuming all the ammonia.

But in an established tank where there is a sudden change, bacteria is still there consuming ammonia and the macros are consume the ammonia above that level. So nitrates are still being generate and at the same level as before the change. but no the macros are getting nitrogen from the ammonia and not just the nitrates. Therefore the nitrate will rise.
2

How can the bacteria keep producing the same amount of nitrate if some of the ammonia they were making it from is going elsewhere instead (into the macroalgae)?

 

[dmh41532]

See I thought about that for a second, but I didn't think a few dead snails would have that big an impact.

 

[beaslbob]

How can the bacteria keep producing the same amount of nitrate if some of the ammonia they were making it from is going elsewhere instead (into the macroalgae)?

Because the ammonia initially increased. Previous levels still feed the bacteria. The increase is consumed by the macro algae. So you have the same level of nitrate production and algae now consuming less nitrate and more ammonia.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because the ammonia initially increased. Previous levels still feed the bacteria. The increase is consumed by the macro algae. So you have the same level of nitrate production and algae now consuming less nitrate and more ammonia.

Why would ammonia increase? And if it did for some reason, nitrate would increase even if there was no macroalgae involved since the bacteria will process more into nitrate. The macroalgae just limit the rise of the nitrate.

 

[beaslbob]

Why would ammonia increase? And if it did for some reason, nitrate would increase even if there was no macroalgae involved since the bacteria will process more into nitrate. The macroalgae just limit the rise of the nitrate.

Ammonia could increase for any nunber of reasons like over feeding, a death or whatever. And sure the baceria will reproduce and consume that ammonia----eventurally. But the plant life like algae immediately prefer to consume the increase in ammonia and consume less nitrates. Therefore there is a spike in nitrates while the bacteria "catch up". Once caught up (or the amomnia spike was temporary) the algae revert to consume the nitrates as before.

I'm glad the graph above did show up. What it shows is the typical and classis silent cycle of planted tanks. It would seems to me the exact same thing for the exact same reasons would be true for algae covered live rock as well.

my .02

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don't think there's much of a lag time between bacteria having less ammonia available and producing less nitrate. It is a quick in out process without much internal storage capacity for either.

 

[beaslbob]

thanks for your input and insight.

Just doesn't agree with my experience.

But then perhaps my experience isn't the best as well. LOL

my .02

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd not discounting your experience.

Can you explain exactly what you observed under what conditions?

 

[beaslbob]

I'd not discounting your experience.

Can you explain exactly what you observed under what conditions?

In the graph above starting a 20g Fw from scratch. very small or no ammonia/nitrIte bumps but an initial nitrate bump. the pH was not with the high range test kit. no water changes, no circulation, no chemicals.