Zoas toxic? Proof?

Speg · Jul 17, 2010

I think we've all heard that zoas have toxins inside them and they may be dangerous..I've got some questions regarding just how dangerous they are...

*I've read a forum post about someones dog/cat dying from eating a zoa that fell on the floor.
*I've also heard stories about someone becoming sick from getting a bit of the zoa/juice in their eye when fragging.
*If these toxins do exist then getting sick wouldn't be possible and you should be quite dead.
*Does anybody have any evidence that is actually believable/credible about someone getting seriously sick or dying from zoanthids?
*Are all zoas created equal--saying that do all zoas possess the toxin or only certain types?

As careless as most people are, I'm sure someone should have died from zoa poisoning if in fact it is possible..I just want the proof.

Murfman · Jul 17, 2010

Palytoxin Poisoning (Get Well Curt!) - Marine Aquariums of South Africa

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=6047b27e35d9dd5778d1bd44127b39dd

Palytoxin Poisoning After Dermal Contact with Zoan... [J Emerg Med. 2009] - PubMed result

BiomedExperts: A case of palytoxin poisoning due to contact with zoanthid corals through a skin injury.

dtpollard · Jul 17, 2010

Not all zoas palys have Palytoxin. Palytoxin is deadly. Hawaiians? used to tip darts with it for hunting just like South American tribes use Poison Dart frogs. Most zoas/palys in the aquarium trade do not have the toxin. However since we do not know which ones do or do not it is better to treat them all like they have it. Better safe than sorry. Here is a pretty good link. Palytoxin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

lvsuckerfish · Jul 17, 2010

as everything else in this hobby and work life depending on job, it is better safe then sorry I say. You can press your luck with your life or take proper percations to keep your life. people have gotten sick by zoa juice hitting them also some people break out in rashes when touching other corals like bubble tips frog spawn torch's things like that. bristle worms although they effect some but not others I never been effected by touching a bristle worm fire worm or anything to that matter.

it is alo like saying you will die if you get bit by a black widow or a rattle snake but people live though those bites also.

Speg · Jul 17, 2010

lvsuckerfish said:
as everything else in this hobby and work life depending on job, it is better safe then sorry I say. You can press your luck with your life or take proper percations to keep your life. people have gotten sick by zoa juice hitting them also some people break out in rashes when touching other corals like bubble tips frog spawn torch's things like that. bristle worms although they effect some but not others I never been effected by touching a bristle worm fire worm or anything to that matter.

it is alo like saying you will die if you get bit by a black widow or a rattle snake but people live though those bites also.

Breaking out because a coral stung them is quite plausable and makes a lot of sense when you consider what these corals use to compete for space. Although, getting sick because of zoanthids makes no sense. Their toxins are not something that would cause you to get sick--they would cause you to die and that's it. People who say they got sick from zoas are getting sick some other way.

Speg · Jul 17, 2010

Murfman said:
Palytoxin Poisoning (Get Well Curt!) - Marine Aquariums of South Africa

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=6047b27e35d9dd5778d1bd44127b39dd

Palytoxin Poisoning After Dermal Contact with Zoan... [J Emerg Med. 2009] - PubMed result

BiomedExperts: A case of palytoxin poisoning due to contact with zoanthid corals through a skin injury.

None of these are credible sources and one is a copy of another. There is no actual proof that zoanthids were the cause of any symptoms--only asumption.

Speg · Jul 17, 2010

dtpollard said:
Not all zoas palys have Palytoxin. Palytoxin is deadly. Hawaiians? used to tip darts with it for hunting just like South American tribes use Poison Dart frogs. Most zoas/palys in the aquarium trade do not have the toxin. However since we do not know which ones do or do not it is better to treat them all like they have it. Better safe than sorry. Here is a pretty good link. Palytoxin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your first sentence is exactly what I'm looking for.... I would expect this to really be the case.

Thanks a lot.

lvsuckerfish · Jul 17, 2010

I am no expert on zoas but I keep it safe when playing with them. The point I was making some have a higher tolerance then others when it comes to certain things there is only one way to find out test your theory use your self and pit some toxins in your eyes see what happens! not everyone dies from a spider bite nor a snake bite either. there is alot of deadly things in the tanks we love so much some fish are deadly but are still sold and people still stick there hands in the tanks sea apples are deadly and yet some house those also. no one I know has died I have read some go to the hospital for zoa juice in the eye also rashes from other corals but an eye it self has a defense when something enters it it will start to flush itself. with tears possibly not giving it enough time to make it's way to the blood stream. alot of factors involved. if people use a dart frog to hunt then eat it wouldn't they die also? sorry I am all over the place with this post lol

jordan3548 · Jul 17, 2010

I thnk your being stubborn lol If you dont believe peoples cases be the guniea pig and test it for us1smile1

clowns101 · Jul 17, 2010

jordan3548 said:
I thnk your being stubborn lol If you dont believe peoples cases be the guniea pig and test it for us1smile1

+1...

Speg · Jul 17, 2010

jordan3548 said:
I thnk your being stubborn lol If you dont believe peoples cases be the guniea pig and test it for us1smile1

I have. I have cuts on my fingers and a whole hole in my thumb and I fragged countless zoas today. I see people doing videos all the time where the zoa squirts them and they're not wearing anything and yet..we're all still here.

Call it stubborn or call it the desire for what's real. I understand being safe though and to wear protection....Don't use the words of Rocky...."I never use em...."

boehm742 · Jul 17, 2010

dtpollard said:
Not all zoas palys have Palytoxin. Palytoxin is deadly.

This.

boehm742 · Jul 17, 2010

Speg said:
I have. I have cuts on my fingers and a whole hole in my thumb and I fragged countless zoas today. I see people doing videos all the time where the zoa squirts them and they're not wearing anything and yet..we're all still here.

To say that you were exposed and nothing happened is fine. Thats your luck with that Zoanthid. The fact is is that there are some Zoanthids that do indeed carry Palytoxin. To say that instant death is a side effect of this is and that there is nothing but death involved is outrageous. Common Signs & Symptoms like chest pain, SOB, incresed HR and BP as well as Cardiac Arrythmias are going to present in most cases.The severity of symptoms is going to very depending on the individual. Coming from years and years of medical training i can tell you that every single person is going to react to this differently. There are some who are at a higher risk and have less ability to compensate for this toxin being present. There are so many variables involved in this amount of toxin abosorbed/route of exposure and so on that we could drag this out all night, but thats not happening. Take what advice you want and we'll see how you fair.

jordan3548 · Jul 17, 2010

Just because something has a toxin DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL KILL YOU lol when you get bit by a spider do you die?? 9 times out of 10 you dont. Just like spiders and snakes some can barely make you sick while others can drop you in a few minutes. Zoas are the same some may not have any toxins while others can do some serious damage. It is a FACT some carry palytoxins now how much is released during a squirt or its slime is up for debate but if your dumb enough to take chances with your health go ahead I just hope you dont have a family that depends on a paycheck from you. Which snakes are poisonous we know which zoas are we dont so go ahead maybe youll be the one to help us put a list together of which ones are.

PS by the way if we never see you on here again and they try to figure out why your dead leave a note some where that says what you previous post says so your loved ones know what you did

Paul_N · Jul 17, 2010

I call Troll...:tongue:

cparka23 · Jul 17, 2010

If you're really serious about finding out how toxic something is, do the Google on the internet machine and look up scientific journals. There's a ton, and this is just the first article. You'll need journal access to read it, but you can work that issue out if you're dying to know.

Deeds, Jonathan R.; Schwartz, Michael D.. Toxicon, Aug2010, Vol. 56 Issue 2, p150-162, 13p; DOI: 10.1016/j.toxicon.2009.05.035; (AN 51147638)

They extract palytoxin-like compounds from LFS-bought palys from indo/pacific but don't find it in some zoas. So dtpollard was right.

Speg · Jul 17, 2010

jordan3548 said:
Just because something has a toxin DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL KILL YOU lol when you get bit by a spider do you die?? 9 times out of 10 you dont. Just like spiders and snakes some can barely make you sick while others can drop you in a few minutes. Zoas are the same some may not have any toxins while others can do some serious damage. It is a FACT some carry palytoxins now how much is released during a squirt or its slime is up for debate but if your dumb enough to take chances with your health go ahead I just hope you dont have a family that depends on a paycheck from you. Which snakes are poisonous we know which zoas are we dont so go ahead maybe youll be the one to help us put a list together of which ones are.

PS by the way if we never see you on here again and they try to figure out why your dead leave a note some where that says what you previous post says so your loved ones know what you did

Well...this isn't your moms bad cookin..it's supposedly some of the most deadly toxin we know about. Oh..and your spider reference..I suppose it's going to depend on the spider...all toxins aren't created equal =c)

If I'm not here tomorrow...tell everyone what happened ok?

jordan3548 · Jul 17, 2010

Yes dealy toxins BUT how much palytoxin does it actually take to kill a human and how much does zoas have thats what no one knows. I am sure unless your like 90 years old or a child than your chances of dying from such a tiny amount is slim. I never heard anyone say fragging a zoa can kill you Ive heard it can make you very sick. I am sure if your dumb enough to eat a colony then that may just be enough to put you in cardiac arrest. But it is proven the known zoanthids that carry this toxin contain around 2-3 millgrams per gram each gram of palytoxin is Enough to kill 125 grown men. I dont care if its proven or not it is poroven they do carry this. Its not proven great white sharks dislike human flesh that dont mean ill dive with one anytime soon