STN from hell, please help

[DanTheReefer]

Finally hit the point of panic with my 120g ProStar

Dec 2023: Largely Happy Reef Tank for years. Dosing A4R. PO4 a bit high at .35 PPM, nitrate near 0, only issue is some turf algae and coral aggression




Jan 2024: Decide to start dosing NoPox to see if PO4 would come down a little. Concur that I should not have dosed NoPox unless both nitrate and phosphate were elevated. Dosing 1.0 mL daily.

3/18/2024: Dark spot starts forming on seasons greetings monti, zoanthids next to Forrest fire digi partially closed, discontinue NoPox



3/31: Tissue death evident, brown spots growing



4/30 Forrest Fire Death

Stylo starts receeding



Today: About half colonies in tank continuing to recede. Mostly affecting SPS (acros, montis, leptosaris), plus a few zoanthid colonies. LPS like torches, candy canes, frogspawn seem resilient.



Attempts to fix:
- Started with assumption of unknown toxin in tank, ran Rox carbon in media reactor for two weeks and aggressive water changes, 200 or so gallons last month

- 3 treatments of EM Erythromycin past 5 days, tissue decay unaffected

Pretty tragic and stressful. If anyone has any thoughts please let me know.

Alk: 8.5 dKH
Calcium: 430 ppm
Mag: 1440 ppm
NO3: 0.5 ppm
PO4: 0.27 ppm

 

[DJF]

your nitrate is lower than I’d be comfortable with. I like 10ppm

 

[ReeferZ1227]

My recommendation would be ATI ICP (RO and Tank water). Check for anything with potential for rust (magnets, pumps, screws/clips holding pump snd impeller together) etc. I'd also double and triple check salinity calibration. I'd also check your K in the meantime awaiting the ICP.

Unfortunately, if it is related to a toxin, root cause may be harder to determine if you didn't send an ICP before the aggressive WC.

 

[TokenReefer]

0.5 could also be 0.0 accounting for margin of error for most test kits

 

[waqas_01]

I want to point to the zero nitrate. I just dealt with something similar but my lps were first to show signs of trouble. I didn't test nitrate for a few weeks and it went from 15ish to 1ppm.

I've brought it back to about 8ppm with ammonia and amino acid dosing. Will keep going for that 10-15 range.

 

[Pod_01]

So based on the information provided I suspect your issue is N deficiency:

nitrate near 0

I read recently that N deficiency leads to STN, just can’t find the actual post. But going from memory the coral is slowly digesting itself from lack of N.

In your particular case I would try to feed more, maybe add more snails ( they help with N), add more fish or try some amino. Perhaps reduce or remove some filtering method.

I am not fan of just adding NO3 because I see it as end product. If it is in 1ppm or more you have enough N going into the system.

Aggressive use of GAC and large water changes can bring instability and cause more harm long term. For GAC I only use 2 tablespoons per 60 gal of volume and change every 4 weeks. Water change I try to stick with 10% a week.

Also I stay away from all antibiotics and reef tank. Corals have bacteria and antibiotics might be causing more problems. Also overuse will make some strains of coral viruses immune to them and we as reefers may create long term problems.

Also all forms of carbon dosing require NO3 to work, carbon dosing will use up NO3 at larger rate compared to PO4. So if there is no NO3 carbon dosing can create issues. In my opinion for your case if you want to carbon dose use products like TM PlusNP or TM NP Bacto Ballance that have both N and P so you provide enough N for carbon dosing to work.
I use TM NP Bacto Ballance at low dose 0.4 ml per 60 gal and my PO4 and NO3 are as follows:

Corals:

Good luck,

 

[Charlie the Reefer]

Agreed it’s possible nitrogen deficiency. Other option is elevated trace element turning into a pollutant from continued use of AFR and disproportional element consumption/uptake. So I would also suggest ICP.

Other possibility is simply an environment swing caused by the sudden change in nutrients when you began NOPOX dose.

Take my advice with a grain of salt but if my nitrogen/phosphate are out of “balance” I will slowly dose up the lower one, SLOWLY, and test very often while I do it, until nutrients are where I want them.

 

[Leadfooted]

I understand your addressing the source but this stuff worked wonders for me.

RTN STN X by Fauna marine

 

[Pod_01]

I understand your addressing the source but this stuff worked wonders for me.

RTN STN X by Fauna marine

Out of curiosity do you have before and after pics?
I am curious, did you make any adjustments to address the underlying issues?

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

Hey @DanTheReefer,

So nothing was wrong with your system except you noticed 0.35 PO4?

You're starving your corals. A4R actually lowers nitrates gradually. 0 Nitrates is not good for anything. In a system like that you need at least 20 Nitrate. Your PO4 is fine if your corals are doing well. Your slight algae problem is from 0 nitrate.

STOP dosing NOPOX. All you're doing is killing your corals because what they are feeding on, PO4, is about their only source of food and you're slowly removing it. You need to dose Brightwell or similar Nitrates and stop removing phosphates until you can get your nitrates up. Once those start rising, you will notice a slight decrease in PO4 as the system levels out.

Nothing is wrong with your system, so stop dosing Erythromycin, etc. Start dosing nitrates ASAP. In a 120 gallon tank, I would start dosing Brightwell NeoNitro around 60ml a day and after 3 days, take a nitrate reading. Get them up to 20 or 30 and keep checking your phosphates. Even at 0.35 that is not bad considering your corals are thriving.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Hey @DanTheReefer,

So nothing was wrong with your system except you noticed 0.35 PO4?

You're starving your corals. A4R actually lowers nitrates gradually. 0 Nitrates is not good for anything. In a system like that you need at least 20 Nitrate. Your PO4 is fine if your corals are doing well. Your slight algae problem is from 0 nitrate.

STOP dosing NOPOX. All you're doing is killing your corals because what they are feeding on, PO4, is about their only source of food and you're slowly removing it. You need to dose Brightwell or similar Nitrates and stop removing phosphates until you can get your nitrates up. Once those start rising, you will notice a slight decrease in PO4 as the system levels out.

Nothing is wrong with your system, so stop dosing Erythromycin, etc. Start dosing nitrates ASAP. In a 120 gallon tank, I would start dosing Brightwell NeoNitro around 60ml a day and after 3 days, take a nitrate reading. Get them up to 20 or 30 and keep checking your phosphates. Even at 0.35 that is not bad considering your corals are thriving.

I'm not intending to offend but to tell someone they need nitrate at 20ppm is poor advice. I have a mixed reef SPS dominant that floats between 1-5 and it's been plenty healthy for over two years aside from a heavy metal (tin) that took out a few SPS recently. I've recovered from that and still floating nitrates 1-5 and seeing color/growth (above avg growth IMO). I'm not alone on these nitrate levels.

0 nitrate is a disaster, non 0 is the target. 20 is too arbitrary and not supported anecdotally nor scientifically. Ops issue may be nitrate based but if he feeds the tank I'm unsure a crash of this magnitude would be attributed to low nitrate.

Due to my bout with a heavy metal crash, I stick by my recommendation to ICP of RO and Tank water, I also recommend testing K since AFR does not supplement K and I'm unsure what WC schedule OP does, if at all.

 

[Hurricane Aquatics]

I'm not intending to offend but to tell someone they need nitrate at 20ppm is poor advice. I have a mixed reef SPS dominant that floats between 1-5 and it's been plenty healthy for over two years aside from a heavy metal (tin) that took out a few SPS recently. I've recovered from that and still floating nitrates 1-5 and seeing color/growth (above avg growth IMO). I'm not alone on these nitrate levels.

0 nitrate is a disaster, non 0 is the target. 20 is too arbitrary and not supported anecdotally nor scientifically. Ops issue may be nitrate based but if he feeds the tank I'm unsure a crash of this magnitude would be attributed to low nitrate.

Due to my bout with a heavy metal crash, I stick by my recommendation to ICP of RO and Tank water, I also reccomend testing K since AFR does not supplement K and I'm unsure what WC schedule OP does, if at all.

So you're offering nothing but to say "I don't agree, but I can't prove it" to the conversation? Great advice. 20 Nitrate can't be proven scientifically or anecdotally? Oh and ICP test can? You do know those are not scientific either, right?

Let me educate you. When you ride the razors edge for Nitrate 0 to 5 and Phosphate (0.02 to 0.06 or so) and ONE little mistake happens, your done. A higher Nitrate provides balance for the system and causes no ill effects to the system.

Your advice to him for an ICP test is your opinion based upon your mistake of rusty or faulty equipment and not checking regularly. Ok so that ICP test takes about a month at least right? You know where his corals will be in a month? In the trash can.

I take no offense to what you said, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

So you're offering nothing but to say "I don't agree, but I can't prove it" to the conversation? Great advice. 20 Nitrate can't be proven scientifically or anecdotally? Oh and ICP test can? You do know those are not scientific either, right?

Let me educate you. When you ride the razors edge for Nitrate 0 to 5 and Phosphate (0.02 to 0.06 or so) and ONE little mistake happens, your done. A higher Nitrate provides balance for the system and causes no ill effects to the system.

Your advice to him for an ICP test is your opinion based upon your mistake of rusty or faulty equipment and not checking regularly. Ok so that ICP test takes about a month at least right? You know where his corals will be in a month? In the trash can.

I take no offense to what you said, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I'm not opposed to higher nitrate. Early on my tank ran at 20 and I wasn't concerned. Personally I'd prefer my tank to be 5-10. That said, I find my tank does best when I let it find it's balance, and prevent 0 nitrates/phosphates at all costs. Forcing my nitrates higher, unnecessarily, is an extra failure point that may or may not provide a benefit. More worried about my my doser malfunctioning for alk than if my nitrate is 5, 10, or 20.

If he doesn't do ICP, and gets his nitrates up, but has a toxin, his corals will be in the same trash can. I did two ICP tests in 3 weeks BTW. About 7 day turnaround, both trident and ATI.

 

[SimbaAnto]

Why are you chasing numbers. Just feed the fish, high/moderate nitrate and phosphate is not going to kill but a low phosphate will starve a system making your corals bleach. Whenever I try to fix my phosphate I always had coral dying. I run high phosphate but thriving corals and encrusting as well.

 

[DanTheReefer]

@Hurricane Aquatics @ReeferZ1227 @SimbaAnto Appreciate all of you taking the time to help and provide feedback regarding nitrates. They have always been near zero so I didn’t think too much of it, other than the NoPox may have entirely removed any trace amounts from system. My concern was it might have fueled pathogenic bacteria as well. I am going to increase NO3 to 10 ppm.

@Leadfooted thanks for recommendation, I ordered the RTN STN X

 

[acroslayer]

Make sure you have no cloramine or chlorine in source water and to use blue carbon in rodi not the white cartridge that one doesn't remove chloramine I had similar event

 

[Spare time]

PS never use an antibiotic unless you rule out every other possible cause. Antibiotics are harmful to nearly everything in the tank.

 

[SimbaAnto]

PS never use an antibiotic unless you rule out every other possible cause. Antibiotics are harmful to nearly everything in the tank.

Would like to understand more why would you say that it's harmful for everything

 

[ukgeoff]

From what I understand (hopefully someone more informed can clarify), antibiotics are 'broad spectrum,' meaning they can target or kill a wide range of bacteria, including both harmful bacteria and beneficial or good bacteria.

 

[DanTheReefer]

Make sure you have no cloramine or chlorine in source water and to use blue carbon in rodi not the white cartridge that one doesn't remove chloramine I had similar event

Thanks for suggestion, I did test for chlorine / chloramine, both zero, have two chloramine carbon blocks in my RO unit