☆☆ - Fall 2024 Surprise Grow-Out - Poletti Yellow Tip Sign Up Thread - ☆☆

[TheReaperOfMars]

And what exactly have you witnessed by dosing Daily elements that you didn’t with water changes? I have exceptional growth and color and just cAnt wrap my head around spending money on this program or the time lol.. I feel like it has nothing to offer to me personally. I know the guy above you said he couldn’t keep sps till trying it and I’m thinking his biome just matured more than anything like they do with time.

I can’t actually speak to it for any sort of long term. I was only doing it for a few months before the failure that took all my sps out. I can say that everything looked good in that timeline.

As for water changes, there are good reasons for me not to do them. Least of which is that I’m on a septic system and don’t want to flood it with saltwater every few weeks. Also, I am in the planning phases of a truly enormous built in aquarium as I finish my basement. Water changes will be even less practical.

Finally, I’m a control freak. I love the numbers. The idea of precisely tracking consumption rates appeals to me.

 

[Heres_doe_]

And what exactly have you witnessed by dosing Daily elements that you didn’t with water changes? I have exceptional growth and color and just cAnt wrap my head around spending money on this program or the time lol.. I feel like it has nothing to offer to me personally. I know the guy above you said he couldn’t keep sps till trying it and I’m thinking his biome just matured more than anything like they do with time.

I highly doubt your biome will mature from one week to the next where one week you can’t even color up sps and the next week they’re coloring up. You tell me if that’s that possible? It just wasn’t happening for me. I’m not saying you need to do it I don’t make money off this. It worked for me and works for a ton of others.

 

[SaltyArms]

What’s your reason behind the shine?

I’m on the shine in my display tank too. That’s where my Honeybee is on the “other” forum.

I switched into it because I was trying to gain color. The lack of water changes is a bonus. I had been running TM A and K traces in my two part and after an ICP test things were wildly out of proportion.

Since I’ve been doing this it does seem like my acros are generally stronger and healthier. ICPs are coming back rock solid now.

Also, I’ve had a hard time with coraline in this tank (3years old) and since I’ve gotten it dialed in, I’m now growing coraline much better. I know that’s all anecdotal but it makes me feel like it’s “working.”

I have realized that I’m still not seeing color and growth that I think should be happening and I’m attributing that more to the choice of lighting (which I’m about to rectify.)

This Poletti contest piece is going in my frag tank though. And I’m treating it like a step child… using All for Reef and some KZ supps that I had left over lol.

 

[SaltyArms]

I have a question too, and I'm Sure this has probably been discuss elsewhere I am sorry for the lack of diligence here, but what is the difference between the "moonshiners" method and the traditional "triton" method which has been around since the beginning of hobbyist accessible icp testing?

So RM is basically a trace management program. Andre has recommendations on some of the other pieces, but it works with all different types of filtration, etc. There’s a lot of flexibility. You can even do water changes if you want, just expect to need more adjustments, etc.

Where Triton differs is that it’s a very opinionated/rigid total methodology. It has the ICP testing and trace additions in it. But it also specifically “requires” a refugium sized at 1g fuge : 10g display. It also requires 10x hourly total system turnover in the sump. No filter socks or roller mats are used. Nutrient management is heavily reliant on the fuge with the skimmer as backup. It’s very specific, kind of like ZeoVit.

Triton seems to work though. Of course… so does ZeoVit. Both systems produce some incredible tanks.

 

[Troylee]

So RM is basically a trace management program. Andre has recommendations on some of the other pieces, but it works with all different types of filtration, etc. There’s a lot of flexibility. You can even do water changes if you want, just expect to need more adjustments, etc.

Where Triton differs is that it’s a very opinionated/rigid total methodology. It has the ICP testing and trace additions in it. But it also specifically “requires” a refugium sized at 1g fuge : 10g display. It also requires 10x hourly total system turnover in the sump. No filter socks or roller mats are used. Nutrient management is heavily reliant on the fuge with the skimmer as backup. It’s very specific, kind of like ZeoVit.

Triton seems to work though. Of course… so does ZeoVit. Both systems produce some incredible tanks.

I’m just really old skool I guess.. we’ve been growing sps for many years before any of this was even a thought! We ran a skimmer and changed water and it worked then and still does today.. there’s wasn’t elements for reef tanks really and no icp testing. from everything I’ve ever gathered about moonshine it allows you to not change water at best.. I’ve haven’t heard of any extra benefits from it.. people say salt is exspensive I mean I guess? It seems supplements and icp testing is more pricey to me. I also know people are lazy also I’m one of them lol, so I invested in a mixing station and built it in my garage and now I’m not lazy about it I’m actually excited to change water any more as I can change up to 120 gallons in 20 min and I know what my tank will look like the next day as everything perks up!

 

[SaltyArms]

Yeah I hear you and obviously it works. I’ve seen the growth/color you’re getting on the other contest already.

For me it’s more than not changing water. The idea is to keep the different elements at slightly elevated levels so they’re always optimally available. To me that makes sense so the coral can have what it needs any time it needs it. Is it required to grow nice corals? Not at all. But I tend to like these kinds of systems.

Honestly, I’m about to pivot my frag set up to add another tank to the system and I’m either taking it full ZeoVit like Oz’s tank on humblefish OR I’m going to adjust it to stupid simple and run it like Adam runs his. I’m already using Bacto in that tank and started ammonium this week cause nutrients were zero again… just need a CaRx and then get my water change station built. Maybe I can talk Adam into selling me some of that scrumptious live rock…

 

[zbryant91]

I’m just really old skool I guess.. we’ve been growing sps for many years before any of this was even a thought! We ran a skimmer and changed water and it worked then and still does today.. there’s wasn’t elements for reef tanks really and no icp testing. from everything I’ve ever gathered about moonshine it allows you to not change water at best.. I’ve haven’t heard of any extra benefits from it.. people say salt is exspensive I mean I guess? It seems supplements and icp testing is more pricey to me. I also know people are lazy also I’m one of them lol, so I invested in a mixing station and built it in my garage and now I’m not lazy about it I’m actually excited to change water any more as I can change up to 120 gallons in 20 min and I know what my tank will look like the next day as everything perks up!

I’ll preface this with I agree that many things can work. But the fact that things look better after a water change means something could be better to prevent the times they look worse.

I don’t believe I am ever 100% happy with the way everything looks in my tanks, but I run auto water changes, around 1.5% a day and I dose tropic Marin a- and k+ traces on dosers. Then do icp every 3 months and do corrective doses at that time.

I don’t think I have everything figured out but everything is consistent and pretty low maintenance which was my goal.

FWIW, I am also dosing bacto balance, ammonia bicarbonate, and most recently I automated lanthanum chloride to keep those steady as well.

Also, I haven’t been involved in the conversation, but it has been some really interesting and informative reading the last couple days on this thread so I appreciate everything that everyone’s been sharing since I think it’s good to learn from each other and share what does and doesn’t work.

 

[SaltyArms]

Id love to do the auto water changes especially for the DOC reasons, but it worries me being on a septic system. Saltwater isn’t great for septic bacteria…

That’s one other major benefit for me doing RM…

 

[Troylee]

I’ll preface this with I agree that many things can work. But the fact that things look better after a water change means something could be better to prevent the times they look worse.

I don’t believe I am ever 100% happy with the way everything looks in my tanks, but I run auto water changes, around 1.5% a day and I dose tropic Marin a- and k+ traces on dosers. Then do icp every 3 months and do corrective doses at that time.

I don’t think I have everything figured out but everything is consistent and pretty low maintenance which was my goal.

FWIW, I am also dosing bacto balance, ammonia bicarbonate, and most recently I automated lanthanum chloride to keep those steady as well.

Also, I haven’t been involved in the conversation, but it has been some really interesting and informative reading the last couple days on this thread so I appreciate everything that everyone’s been sharing since I think it’s good to learn from each other and share what does and doesn’t work.

And that leads me to this.. anyone who is anti water change doesn’t see the changes in their tank as it goes down hill slowly over time. It’s like us aging and looking in the mirror every day we don’t notice any changes.. you do a water change and then you’re like wow! My tank looks great today! Now if we can figure out how to change our oil and see results in the mirror next day that would be great!

 

[braaap]

And that leads me to this.. anyone who is anti water change doesn’t see the changes in their tank as it goes down hill slowly over time. It’s like us aging and looking in the mirror every day we don’t notice any changes.. you do a water change and then you’re like wow! My tank looks great today! Now if we can figure out how to change our oil and see results in the mirror next day that would be great!

I mean. Maybe ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I haven’t changed the water in my tank in 3-4 months and my tank literally hasn’t looked better. I just dialed in my dosing and things like potassium and iodine.

I believe water changes work. But they aren’t necessary if you want to dose some elements daily.

 

[braaap]

Id love to do the auto water changes especially for the DOC reasons, but it worries me being on a septic system. Saltwater isn’t great for septic bacteria…

That’s one other major benefit for me doing RM…

When I was doing changes I dumped it down my septic in the winter. In the summer I just dumped it outside in the driveway. No weeds! Haha

 

[TheReaperOfMars]

@Battlecorals Would I be correct in saying your GrowOuts are probably the biggest ones out there?

I ask to say this: I think there is a real opportunity here to have a big grow out and compile a ton of data about how different species react to different environments. Would be cool to even see if universities or public aquariums wanted to participate. For a contest like that, maybe make it a bigger entry fee for hobbyists to make it free for the researchers. The trick would be making detailed data recording required to win.

Just a random thought. Would be cool to really compare methods, lighting, parameters, etc.

 

[Jasonak]

@Battlecorals Would I be correct in saying your GrowOuts are probably the biggest ones out there?

I ask to say this: I think there is a real opportunity here to have a big grow out and compile a ton of data about how different species react to different environments. Would be cool to even see if universities or public aquariums wanted to participate. For a contest like that, maybe make it a bigger entry fee for hobbyists to make it free for the researchers. The trick would be making detailed data recording required to win.

Just a random thought. Would be cool to really compare methods, lighting, parameters, etc.

Better yet get researchers/university's to sponsor the contest and pay for icp and bio test on contestants tanks

 

[Johnd651]

Better yet get researchers/university's to sponsor the contest and pay for icp and bio test on contestants tanks

Being that researcher 14 years ago doing coral research.. I had an ICP-MS. I bet they would process the water free of charge.

 

[TheReaperOfMars]

Being that researcher 14 years ago doing coral research.. I had an ICP-MS. I bet they would process the water free of charge.

This is what I was thinking. No chance they participate if they have to pay for a bunch of hobbyists to show them up. But use of an ICP machine they already have in exchange for lots of data and a free coral? I bet someone would bite

 

[Mschmidt]

@Battlecorals Would I be correct in saying your GrowOuts are probably the biggest ones out there?

I ask to say this: I think there is a real opportunity here to have a big grow out and compile a ton of data about how different species react to different environments. Would be cool to even see if universities or public aquariums wanted to participate. For a contest like that, maybe make it a bigger entry fee for hobbyists to make it free for the researchers. The trick would be making detailed data recording required to win.

Just a random thought. Would be cool to really compare methods, lighting, parameters, etc.

Probably biggest and first.

That would be a lot of data to gather out the gate. Icp and biom data would be easy, but there would probably be cause for gathering par and spectrum data even beyond light type. But if the researchers are gathering the data. I wouldn't refuse a quarterly free par, spectrum, icp, and biom test. I'm crazy, not dumb

It would be a great way to get a lot of data, but there are so many variables that it would be hard to compile. But I work on the humanities, not hard sciences, maybe others have secret ways to ease the burden.

 

[littlebeard]

Hate to be the naysayer but I don't think it would be a good study. There are only 30 contestants and I'm willing to bet my frag that no two contestants have the exact same setup, meaning there is way too much variability to have a meaningful study other than to prove what doesn't work.

Lights, age of lights, light settings (par, time of day), tank temperature and variation, flow, coral placement, water quality, food input, water changes, coral warefare, coral demand, fish that nibble, dosing procedures, skill/time commitment of aquariast. Literally way too many variables.

For example, it is well known that PH is a major contributor to coral growth. My house I have 3 kids, 2 dogs a cat and way too many nephews that drive up the CO2 in winter. I can see there is a different alk demand during certain times of year and I change dosing to keep it constant. This is my hobby not my job, so sometimes it takes a backseat to life.

If I was a scientist spending money studying this, I would definitely want to have full control as many variables as possible so I could see which inputs change which outputs.

 

[Johnd651]

Hate to be the naysayer but I don't think it would be a good study. There are only 30 contestants and I'm willing to bet my frag that no two contestants have the exact same setup, meaning there is way too much variability to have a meaningful study other than to prove what doesn't work.

Lights, age of lights, light settings (par, time of day), tank temperature and variation, flow, coral placement, water quality, food input, water changes, coral warefare, coral demand, fish that nibble, dosing procedures, skill/time commitment of aquariast. Literally way too many variables.

For example, it is well known that PH is a major contributor to coral growth. My house I have 3 kids, 2 dogs a cat and way too many nephews that drive up the CO2 in winter. I can see there is a different alk demand during certain times of year and I change dosing to keep it constant. This is my hobby not my job, so sometimes it takes a backseat to life.

If I was a scientist spending money studying this, I would definitely want to have full control as many variables as possible so I could see which inputs change which outputs.

With modeling software such as JMP DoE, variability would be preferred. I would use it in the past in a case just like this, and then fill in the gaps

 

[Battlecorals]

@Battlecorals Would I be correct in saying your GrowOuts are probably the biggest ones out there?

I ask to say this: I think there is a real opportunity here to have a big grow out and compile a ton of data about how different species react to different environments. Would be cool to even see if universities or public aquariums wanted to participate. For a contest like that, maybe make it a bigger entry fee for hobbyists to make it free for the researchers. The trick would be making detailed data recording required to win.

Just a random thought. Would be cool to really compare methods, lighting, parameters, etc.

Way back in some of the first few contests we did, this was actually one of the main goals. To get some sort of a collective database on how different tanks can affect the exact same coral over the pan of a year.


our ambitions were sincere I promise you but in the end, just getting people to post pics every month was challenging enough, and we abandoned a lot of that unfortunately.

however. I am currently working on a new section for the site that highlights the grow out contests and plan to add as much of this sort of info as possible. like a massive reference and gallery and stuff for all things "BC grow out"

Literally working with my developer as we speak. hoping to get it rolled out in 2025

 

[TheReaperOfMars]

Way back in some of the first few contests we did, this was actually one of the main goals. To get some sort of a collective database on how different tanks can affect the exact same coral over the pan of a year.


our ambitions were sincere I promise you but in the end, just getting people to post pics every month was challenging enough, and we abandoned a lot of that unfortunately.

however. I am currently working on a new section for the site that highlights the grow out contests and plan to add as much of this sort of info as possible. like a massive reference and gallery and stuff for all things "BC grow out"

Literally working with my developer as we speak. hoping to get it rolled out in 2025

Maybe I’m being a little snobby, but my thought would be more like a “tournament of champions plus research groups” type thing. People like me who haven’t been competitive in a grow out don’t get to compete. I don’t have a history of providing long term good data.

Like @Johnd651 said, good chunks of variable data would be perfect. Especially with AI in play now to make correlations that humans won’t see. And the more times you do it, the better it gets.

It for sure wouldn’t be easy, but I think if done right there might be valuable. In all honesty it would be less of a “fun competition” like this is and more of actual science.