Avoiding the ugly stage?!?

[Lasse]

I cannot accept that assertion, and the simple fact that dosing silicate suddenly boost diatoms shows it is incorrect for at least those aquaria, if not all aquaria.

Silicate was absolutely limiting diatom growth in my tank.

Silica In Reef Aquariums

Why would I recommend dosing silica? Largely because creatures in our tanks use it, the concentrations in our tanks (at least in mine) are below natural levels, and the sponges, mollusks, and diatoms may not be getting enough to thrive.

reefs.com

Figure 3. A view of the inside of the front glass of my reef tank 5 days after scraping the glass.

Figure 6. A view of the inside of the front glass of my reef tank 5 days after scraping the glass and adding the silica supplement.

What was your PO4 during that experiment ?

From your article

In a reef tank like mine with silica concentrations below 0.8 mM (0.05 ppm SiO2, the practical limit of the Hach silica kit), some diatoms will have a hard time absorbing silica.

0.05 ppm SiO2 is 50 µg SiO2 -> around 25 µg/L Si. Its much lesser than the reported 100 - 200 µg/L Si from many reef tanks around the world by different ICP tests. My aquarium runs normally around 200 - 400 µg/L and I would say that my tank is not Si limited. My last measurement was around 325 µg/L

A study in the pacific from 1991 shows very low Si contents in surface water (ICP-AES) In the first 30 m the concentration mostly varied between 0.5 and 1.5 µmol/L Si -> between 14 and 42 µg/L Si. Two samples show higher 16.1 and 6.9 µmol/L -> 450 and 193 µg/L. Deeper down - much higher values and the surface values is because of pelagic diatoms use it. The deeps are a sink for Si. But the same happens in a reef aquarium where sand and stones works as a sink - IMO.

At least in my aquarium - Si is not limited for diatom growth and - IMO - concentrations above 100 µg/L is not limited for diatoms or sponges. It may be important to mention that in an aquarium we have to deal with benthic diatoms - in open sea - its pelagic diatoms

Note - see chart - there seems not be any correlation between Si in RO water and Si residue in my tank water. The balance seems to be upheld of internal sources. During this time - no mayor diatom blooms - they are there occasionally but no unwanted blooms or domination. ICP-OES if not ICP-MS

Sincerely Lasse

 

[tzoa]

I just meant avoiding the ugly stage, however Coral depends on Par or light intensity small polyp needs 400 and up

yeah I was just asking if blue light grew algae or not, but I now I know

 

[Ghostbuster]

I'm getting a lot of different information. Idk what to do lol

Congrats on starting a popular thread. Very impressive!

 

[ReefGeezer]

... At least in my aquarium - Si is not limited for diatom growth and - IMO - concentrations above 100 µg/L is not limited for diatoms or sponges...

Sincerely Lasse

I'm not good at applying ocean research to my aquarium. Would diatom use of silicates be dependent on the other users present in the environment? Is the message here that silicates never encourage diatom growth, even when no other users are present i.e. new set-ups?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What was your PO4 during that experiment ?

From your article



0.05 ppm SiO2 is 50 µg SiO2 -> around 25 µg/L Si. Its much lesser than the reported 100 - 200 µg/L Si from many reef tanks around the world by different ICP tests. My aquarium runs normally around 200 - 400 µg/L and I would say that my tank is not Si limited. My last measurement was around 325 µg/L

A study in the pacific from 1991 shows very low Si contents in surface water (ICP-AES) In the first 30 m the concentration mostly varied between 0.5 and 1.5 µmol/L Si -> between 14 and 42 µg/L Si. Two samples show higher 16.1 and 6.9 µmol/L -> 450 and 193 µg/L. Deeper down - much higher values and the surface values is because of pelagic diatoms use it. The deeps are a sink for Si. But the same happens in a reef aquarium where sand and stones works as a sink - IMO.

At least in my aquarium - Si is not limited for diatom growth and - IMO - concentrations above 100 µg/L is not limited for diatoms or sponges. It may be important to mention that in an aquarium we have to deal with benthic diatoms - in open sea - its pelagic diatoms

Note - see chart - there seems not be any correlation between Si in RO water and Si residue in my tank water. The balance seems to be upheld of internal sources. During this time - no mayor diatom blooms - they are there occasionally but no unwanted blooms or domination. ICP-OES if not ICP-MS

Sincerely Lasse

I don't recall the phosphate level. I doubt I measured it.

Have you ever dosed silicate to see if you detect more diatoms?

My silicate measurement was by test kit. One week after dosing, my tank showed 56 ug/L Si by ICP.

I'm not convinced all the Si measured by ICP in every tank is silicate, but it is certainly possible that diatoms in your system are limited by something that was not limiting in mine or in others that see increased diatoms when dosing silicate.

 

[tzoa]

Update:

So some cyano or bacteria type thing is starting to come in. I was planning on doing a water change tonight. Should I do one or just wait a month or two and let it take its course?

 

[ReefGeezer]

Update:

So some cyano or bacteria type thing is starting to come in. I was planning on doing a water change tonight. Should I do one or just wait a month or two and let it take its course?

Got brushes yet? Elbow grease is still the best additive to manage the uglies. If the tank is cycled, water changes are good but won't have much impact on bacteria or algae growth.

 

[Tamberav]

Update:

So some cyano or bacteria type thing is starting to come in. I was planning on doing a water change tonight. Should I do one or just wait a month or two and let it take its course?

Do you know your nutrients?

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

We can only test for nitrate and phosphate, their impact on some of the nuisances are minimal, nutrient management to me is about choosing pathways to help aid the control of ammonium.
In saltwater aquaria this is the most desirable nutrient by all photosynthetic organisms hence we never being able to test for it.
Once light is added to a new tank the first organisms that will use it is diatoms especially if started with dry rock, once silica becomes limited the green film will start showing up on rocks and here is the most important part of nutrient management.
If not enough photosynthetic organisms are added green hair algae or other algae’s will start to develop as they won’t have any competition available, if enough photosynthetic organisms are present such as other desirable algae’s or enough coral you can create a competitive pathway for ammonia.
This pathways need to be established early on as photosynthetic organisms are way more efficient at using ammonia vs nitrifying bacteria, in most tanks the notification process is outcompeted by photosynthetic organisms.

Nitrate and phosphate usually only becomes a problem if it’s too low or bottomed out in the cycling process. They don’t start a problem for photosynthetic organisms as they will have to spend energy to convert nitrate into ammonia.

To me nutrient management is maintaining nitrates and phosphate within acceptable ranges (never allowing them to bottom out) , creating multiple pathways for ammonium management including promoting the growth of photosynthetic films on the rock and adding herbivorous to control any possible outbreaks at early stages including pods and other types of zooplankton.

This is a example of a tank 5 weeks old that have been managed nutrient from day zero, firstly with silica and diatoms and then adding macro algae’s

Nitrates 20 mg/l
Phosphate 0.4 mg/l

Before

After 5 weeks

Notice how all the rock has become full of beneficial photosynthetic biofilms that will aid the nuisance competition process.
Once I have enough coral and coraline algae in there I will remove the macro algae’s and replace the ammonia pathway this way.

great analysis-yea the point I was making is that even with all the husbandry, testing (as limited as testing will tell you hats going on with regards to the uglies) and diligence we put in, it’s almost impossible to avoid these algae’s. Some claim they avoided them but i’d be willing to bet they’re in the 2-5%.

 

[ReefGeezer]

great analysis-yea the point I was making is that even with all the husbandry, testing (as limited as testing will tell you hats going on with regards to the uglies) and diligence we put in, it’s almost impossible to avoid these algae’s. Some claim they avoided them but i’d be willing to bet they’re in the 2-5%.

Hey, Sixty's mention of pathways reminds me of my article:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/creating-mature-food-webs-and-nutrient-processing-pathways.858

If the link doesn't work, there is one in my signature section. While certainly nonscientific and having a few things in it I would change now, it might be a good read for the OP.

I think it would also be helpful to provide the OP with some reasonable expectations. From my experience, tanks started with dry rock and any method of cycling will be a challenge for more than a year. Look for diatoms - green film algae - Cyanobacteria and Dinos - green hair algae - and then bubble algae. And finally, even when the tank is mature and full of life, there still may be an issue that pops up that requires the reefer's attention. For me it is bubble algae. The biggest take away might be to stay away from things, other than a brush, that promise to get rid of the uglies.

 

[tzoa]

Do you know your nutrients?

I haven't tested them yet, I never thought too because it's a new tank and the uglies are normal. I'm just curious if I should do a water change or not

 

[Tamberav]

I haven't tested them yet, I never thought too because it's a new tank and the uglies are normal. I'm just curious if I should do a water change or not

I asked in case they are low and not high

I usually do one water change after the cycle and go from there, with new rock it can suck up phosphate and lead to dino so have to be carful there.

If PO4 or No3 are stable (not critically low), then I do weekly water changes in order to suck our debris/clean filters, suck any algae of the rock, manual removal/clean up. It is more about cleaning debris and algae then it being about the actual water changed. At least early on.

If I had zero Po4 but high No3, then I would do the water change but dose some bottled PO4 to raise slightly. I just hate running zero on dry rock starts but it also depends on if you have cyano and how much. I would always get green cyano when I was running near 0 nutrients and the purple with high nutrients.

Edit: oh and if both are low then I would skip the water change this week. Nutrients can swing wildly in new tanks so its almost better to keep a closer eye on them then in aged tanks.

 

[Ghostbuster]

I haven't tested them yet, I never thought too because it's a new tank and the uglies are normal. I'm just curious if I should do a water change or not

No need in my opinion; a water change would be a waste of good salt water if you’re just starting out. Scrub the cyano with a toothbrush or something off your rockwork, and let it collect in a filter sock. Also test for NO3 & PO4 to ensure one or the other isn’t bottoming out. I believe hobbyists say that new dry rock will absorb PO4 pretty rapidly, but the important part is not to run out of either nitrate or phosphate in your system.

 

[areefer01]

Never understood the avoiding thing. Just embrace it and enjoy. Might as well take the time to learn cause and effect in the timeline rather than avoiding and not knowing what to do later.

 

[ChrisfromBrick]

Hey, Sixty's mention of pathways reminds me of my article:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/creating-mature-food-webs-and-nutrient-processing-pathways.858

If the link doesn't work, there is one in my signature section. While certainly nonscientific and having a few things in it I would change now, it might be a good read for the OP.

I think it would also be helpful to provide the OP with some reasonable expectations. From my experience, tanks started with dry rock and any method of cycling will be a challenge for more than a year. Look for diatoms - green film algae - Cyanobacteria and Dinos - green hair algae - and then bubble algae. And finally, even when the tank is mature and full of life, there still may be an issue that pops up that requires the reefer's attention. For me it is bubble algae. The biggest take away might be to stay away from things, other than a brush, that promise to get rid of the uglies.

I dealt with bubble years ago and it was by far the most frustrating., I just found a frag with a bubble, carefully removed it and dipped in peroxide. This was a few months ago and haven’t seen any since

 

[Exotrezy]

Hey, Sixty's mention of pathways reminds me of my article:

https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/creating-mature-food-webs-and-nutrient-processing-pathways.858

If the link doesn't work, there is one in my signature section. While certainly nonscientific and having a few things in it I would change now, it might be a good read for the OP.

I think it would also be helpful to provide the OP with some reasonable expectations. From my experience, tanks started with dry rock and any method of cycling will be a challenge for more than a year. Look for diatoms - green film algae - Cyanobacteria and Dinos - green hair algae - and then bubble algae. And finally, even when the tank is mature and full of life, there still may be an issue that pops up that requires the reefer's attention. For me it is bubble algae. The biggest take away might be to stay away from things, other than a brush, that promise to get rid of the uglies.

About your article, I started with rock, don't know if it was dry or live as I got it with the tank from someone who had it in a tank before me. It is pretty white so probably dry. I had a question. If I were to get coralline algae from someone and add it to my tank, would this make coralline grow faster and potentially skip some of these steps?

 

[Exotrezy]

I dealt with bubble years ago and it was by far the most frustrating., I just found a frag with a bubble, carefully removed it and dipped in peroxide. This was a few months ago and haven’t seen any since

This might be a dumb question but I started with rock, don't know if it was dry or live as I got it with the tank from someone who had it in a tank before me. It is pretty white so probably dry. If I were to get coralline algae from someone and add it to my tank, would this make coralline grow faster and potentially skip some of these steps?

 

[Exotrezy]

I asked in case they are low and not high

I usually do one water change after the cycle and go from there, with new rock it can suck up phosphate and lead to dino so have to be carful there.

If PO4 or No3 are stable (not critically low), then I do weekly water changes in order to suck our debris/clean filters, suck any algae of the rock, manual removal/clean up. It is more about cleaning debris and algae then it being about the actual water changed. At least early on.

If I had zero Po4 but high No3, then I would do the water change but dose some bottled PO4 to raise slightly. I just hate running zero on dry rock starts but it also depends on if you have cyano and how much. I would always get green cyano when I was running near 0 nutrients and the purple with high nutrients.

Edit: oh and if both are low then I would skip the water change this week. Nutrients can swing wildly in new tanks so its almost better to keep a closer eye on them then in aged tanks.

This might be a dumb question but I started with rock, don't know if it was dry or live as I got it with the tank from someone who had it in a tank before me. It is pretty white so probably dry. If I were to get coralline algae from someone and add it to my tank, would this make coralline grow faster and potentially skip some of these steps?

 

[Lasse]

Is the message here that silicates never encourage diatom growth, even when no other users are present i.e. new set-ups

No - I´m saying that I do not think that the Si concentration found in many tanks - especially in mine - is totally growth limited for diatoms. That I do not have diatom blooms must therefore be explained an other way. My explanation was that benthic diatoms are better to utilize low PO4 compared with other organism. This may be wrong. I based my thought of old knowledge but when I now try to find scientific reports I can´t find any evidence for this. Only report that come closest to my old "knowledge" is an report from freshwater streams in New Zeeland there one benthic diatom that was mat building during low PO4 concentrations.

I found another article dealing with tidal marine sediments from a bay in Spain with low Si concentrations in the surrounding water. The average incoming water parameters during the experiment was Dissolved Si around 6 µg/L, NH4 around 22 µg/L, NOx around 50 µg/L and PO4 around 7 µg/L (0.007 mg/L) (All conversions from µM done by me. NOx is calculated on NO3 by me). They set up an experiment in order to see if Si addition rise the gross production of O2 and chlorophyll from the sediment by adding dissolved Si in different situations. If the additions rise O2 and Chl - it indicate diatom activity, They stabilize the NO3 input to around 1 mg/L and PO4 input to around 0.1 mg/L. Variation of Si was 140 µg/L, 280 µg/L, 700 µg/L and 1260 µg/L. The result can be seen in this graph from the article

​

Fastest rise happens in the first 280 µg/L addition which strengthen my thoughts that at least in my aquarium its not limit my diatoms growth - it does not max it but neither limit it to 0

I don't recall the phosphate level. I doubt I measured it.

Have you ever dosed silicate to see if you detect more diatoms?

My silicate measurement was by test kit. One week after dosing, my tank showed 56 ug/L Si by ICP.

I haven dose more but as you see on my chart - I have had higher concentrations than 300 µg/L without seen any diatom bloom.

I'm not convinced all the Si measured by ICP in every tank is silicate, but it is certainly possible that diatoms in your system are limited by something that was not limiting in mine or in others that see increased diatoms when dosing silicate.

When you test a theory you always (at least me) stretch it as long as you can in order to see if it hold on. If I have observations that not fit in - I try to dig them down as deep as possible until i reach the dead end street.

I have not have had diatom blooms on sand and rocks since the first weeks but now and when - a fast growing brown film (as in your photos) on the front window. But it has come and go regardless of what Si concentration my ICP tests show. Sometimes it has been there - sometimes it has been green and not so fast growing. It can be diatoms or dinoflagellates but it has not spread - I scrape it away and 2-3 days later - time for the the razor blade again.

Nearly year ago my PO4 concentrations was around 0,1-0,2 mg/L. GFO has not been very successfully for me before - I decide to test Saliferts liquid phosphate eliminator, Somewhere I read that it was iron based. It says that it bound the phosphate in forms that the corals can´t access but I have not see that their growth have slow down or any sign of PO4 defiency on them. Sp I do not buy that explanation. But I dose in a very aggressive mode an after my latest ICP did not show up to high iron (ICP-MS and 0,69 µg/L) I dose 15 ml/day

But after the first week back in February 2024 - the brown film totally disappear - have not seen it at all since that week. Iron steady around 0,69 µg/L . In January 2024 it was non detected but it was with ICP-OES. Si concentration have been nearly the same for 3 years now - see post ¤241

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tamberav]

This might be a dumb question but I started with rock, don't know if it was dry or live as I got it with the tank from someone who had it in a tank before me. It is pretty white so probably dry. If I were to get coralline algae from someone and add it to my tank, would this make coralline grow faster and potentially skip some of these steps?

It won’t skip it no. It’s a good idea to add coralline but this usually comes in on snails and corals anyways. Coralline won’t take off till the tank stabilizes in a way we can’t easily test for. What I mean is your alk/ca/mg and nutrients can be within range but coralline still takes time. There is an entire bacterial biome happening in the tank we don’t fully understand or can test.

That biome and critters are already in place from ocean live rock hence that is pretty close to an instant tank/reef.