Bolus dosing

[Garf]

Knowing how the KH director works

Yes, I can see that's helpful, lol.

 

[SDchris]

Knowing how the KH director works I have difficult to see any artefacts there.

Heres one I made 5 years ago. DIY Alkalinity tester
When testing a container of seawater I could get reproducibility down to 0.02dkh.
However this changed when spiking the alkalinity in the sample say from 7 -> 10dkh, when the next couple tests would be off, similar to your graph. This also happened with dilution but less extreme.
I had a theory as to why but since I don't know the software algorithms of the commercial units, could not determine if ultimately it was my algorithm or pH probe associated.
I tried to get a couple of people to perform a similar out of tank test, but could not get any takers.

 

[Lasse]

There is a law in Sweden about mistakes - they normally happens twice . Because I know how I did the mistake yesterday - I repeat it today

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

I have found 1 explanation to the curve - something important that can explain most of the confusion. If you look at the graph - the reported dKH (in blue) have the timestamp when the analyse was finished - not when the sample was taken! The sample was taken 12:15 - 15 minutes BEFORE the last addition (in red) That explain most of the "delay" - It was an artefakt. I will probably only make 2 doses today.

I follow up these measurements with two manual methods too - Hanna alk and Salifert

It ended up with I maybe not know my equipment very well.....

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

Here is the result for the last two days. As normal with experiments - it leaves you with more questions than you had before the tests. I decided not to spike today and have a normal dosing up to 8 dKH as first step. The only thing that seems to be proven is that at least in my aquarium - there is no large consumption between 00:36 and 06:36. This is the same for all 3 spike tests I have done. Can this be the background precipitation of CaCO3 in my aquarium (not coral driven) ?

pH during the same period

I plan to rise my dKH slowly to around 8.8 again and once again shout down my doses for 24 hours. I will not spike this time

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As a follow up, since FM is a Reef2Reef sponsor, I asked them in their forum here what I think it a very legit question, not about the bolus dosing and its claims, but a statement they make about the ingredients and claims of their Balling light Product.


On your web site you claim that your Balling Light product

". To further aid in restoring and maintaining chemical balance, we’ve developed and added an Organic Peptide Polymer to our Balling salts. This key ingredient helps remove excess elements from the water column."

https://www.faunamarin.de/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/FM_HTU_Balling_Light_System_EN.pdf

Can you clarify which "excess elements" you believe are being exported, and why you believe they are present in excess in aquariums that use your product?

Being an expert professional polymer chemist who works everyday with peptides, I do not need an explanation of what the material is and I'm not asking for the identity, just clarification of what this purported benefit is.

Thank you.

Question about Balling Light

On your web site you claim that your Balling Light product ". To further aid in restoring and maintaining chemical balance, we’ve developed and added an Organic Peptide Polymer to our Balling salts. This key ingredient helps remove excess elements from the water column."...

www.reef2reef.com

Probably just coincidence, but July 2, three weeks ago , when I posted the above question in the Fauna Marin forum here at reef2Reef was literally the last time FM Support signed onto Reef2Reef. Consequently, they have not answered yet.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The only thing that seems to be proven is that at least in my aquarium - there is no large consumption between 00:36 and 06:36. This is the same for all 3 spike tests I have done. Can this be the background precipitation of CaCO3 in my aquarium (not coral driven) ?

It might be, or it might be many other processes, including slow alk uptake by corals, uptake by nonphotosynthetic organisms (snails, certain worms, etc.), production of nitrate that is consumed later during the day, etc.

 

[danimal1211]

Probably just coincidence, but July 2, three weeks ago , when I posted the above question in the Fauna Marin forum here at reef2Reef was literally the last time FM Support signed onto Reef2Reef. Consequently, they have not answered yet.

They’re probably busy searching for all the alk they seem to have misplaced

 

[areefer01]

Probably just coincidence, but July 2, three weeks ago , when I posted the above question in the Fauna Marin forum here at reef2Reef was literally the last time FM Support signed onto Reef2Reef. Consequently, they have not answered yet.

Are they active here? Like daily posts or weekly, frequency?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are they active here? Like daily posts or weekly, frequency?

Obviously not in the past three weeks at all, and not particularly active, but they don't
get many folks actually asking them questions either. They did post 3 times in June, once to push the bolus dosing video.

Seems to me, if you have a sponsor forum of your own that you pay for, you should check to see if folks are asking you questions.

 

[Garf]

Mike Paletta and Claude have just been on a reefbum live. Mike sais his Alk consumption increased straight away, lol. Claude seems to be describing the "Broken buffer system" as the instability in Alk after changing to bolus, another lol.

 

[areefer01]

Mike Paletta and Claude have just been on a reefbum live. Mike sais his Alk consumption increased straight away, lol. Claude seems to be describing the "Broken buffer system" as the instability in Alk after changing to bolus, another lol.

One of the two likes to tinker too much. Not trying to take anything away but it is a different side of the hobby that I think some fall for without the proper background and/or experience.

 

[Garf]

One of the two likes to tinker too much. Not trying to take anything away but it is a different side of the hobby that I think some fall for without the proper background and/or experience.

I'm struggling to believe that Claude hasn't heard the rumblings that the low Alk in his product (compared to advertised) could be responsible for these odd effects folk have noticed. He did distance himself from these strange effects today acknowledging he is not a chemist and the theories had been proposed by actual chemistry peeps.

 

[areefer01]

I'm struggling to believe that Claude hasn't heard the rumblings that the low Alk in his product (compared to advertised) could be responsible for these odd effects folk have noticed.

I tend to agree with you. I'm also starting to believe that some socialites, influencers, and companies throw stuff out there with vague wording, sound bites, catch phrases to gain attention but ignore the questions or squinting by the common folk driven by common sense.

Hope your evening is going well.

 

[SDchris]

Mike Paletta and Claude have just been on a reefbum live.

I learnt that:
- Randy and probably by extension Frank Millero don't understand seawater chemistry.
- The disappearing alkalinity that beautifully described the "broken buffer" is no longer needed as an explanation.
- The "table top" phrase that shows calcification had stopped is now simply referred to as stability (irony).
- You can completely contradict one anecdote with another to prove a point.

 

[danimal1211]

Please correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t feel the issue is the ridiculous claims about Bolus Dosing anymore, so much as the mislabeled dosing instructions. If I mix the product via the directions I should be able to know when I dose Xml I should get Ydkh.
Ironically it seems this discrepancy has been missed for however long by those dosing multiple times a day, but became more obvious with the Bolus dose.

 

[carbl]

What do you do in such cases?
A. You defend yourself against the accusations and refute them. As we know, this did not happen
B. you admit the mistake, apologize and make it right. Difficult, because you then have to explain to all customers why you had the wrong information on the label for years.
C. keep quiet. How many users of Balling light are regularly active here? Probably very few and in a few months, when the thread is no longer active, it will be forgotten.

I think faunamarin has chosen C, meanwhile doing business as usual. I guess the hope is that this will fizzle out.

However, that is risky. If a competitor decides to take legal action for unfair competition, it could get messy. Imagine, for example, that a user of a supply system has a KH consumption of 1/day and then switches to Balling light. After a short time, he realizes that his supposed consumption has risen to 1.5/day. It is then obvious to say that Balling light is working very well and the corals are growing faster.

 

[Garf]

then have to explain to all customers why you had the wrong information on the label for years.

Perhaps the person responsible for changing the labels and calculator was off sick when the formulation was changed, COVID or something, lol.

 

[twentyleagues]

I think they called it "Balling light" for a reason they just spelled LITE wrong. its lite on actual amount of product. See its been there all along.

 

[carbl]

Actually, it's not all that funny. I called it sad recently. Sad, because the company is generally very well respected and supplies good quality products. They also breed great corals and Claude has certainly contributed a lot to reef aquaristics.
But wrong is wrong. It's just a shame to stumble across something like this. If it were my company, I would use the bolus method as a hook and inform all customers that the composition of the carbonate mix has changed. Less KH, but no old tank syndrome, blah blah blah...
Otherwise there is always the risk that sooner or later you will be forced to do so by a competitor.