Bolus dosing

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

And yet many of us are happily enjoying improved results after adopting Bolus. Noticed that not only Reef Bum but also Frag Garage has adopted it recently. Would love to see a "scientific analysis" of the actual ingredients and their impact. While we're at it, lets include all the other products in our hobby that claim to have specific results that are largely unproveable without long and expensive experimentation.

The FM alk part of the bolus method has been analyzed and I reported the results in this thread : sodium bicarbonate.

Since this method has many parts, neither you nor anyone else using and loving the method can validate that the bolus aspect alone provides the improved results you see, unless you chose to not follow the method and just bolus dosed the alk additive.

Folks liking this method really need to get off defending the method and hear what folks are saying. Few folks are criticizing the overall method and no one is telling folks to not use it. Folks have successfully been bolus dosing and fast ramp up lights for a long time with success.

It's the act of adding the alk part all at once that is in question, and what benefit, if any, it provides over everything else the same except alk dosing spread out to maintain specific alk levels.

 

[Aaron Stone]

And yet many of us are happily enjoying improved results after adopting Bolus. Noticed that not only Reef Bum but also Frag Garage has adopted it recently. Would love to see a "scientific analysis" of the actual ingredients and their impact. While we're at it, lets include all the other products in our hobby that claim to have specific results that are largely unproveable without long and expensive experimentation.

Absolutely! I believe that it can be effective. Like I said, I did pretty much the same thing for a long time very effectively. What bothers me is the hand waving claiming "this is the way" while trying to sell me "the way".

And I whole heartedly agree with you on all the other products that are trying to sell you a black box solution to a problem, or perceived problem.

It's that perceived problem that really bugs me. Doug is claiming he is going to cure us all of old tank syndrome. Come on man.

 

[Pod_01]

Noticed that not only Reef Bum but also Frag Garage has adopted it recently.

Not sure about Reef Bum (never got corals from him), but Frag Garage did offer beautiful corals before BOLUS. I am not sure how BOLUS can improve on that nor how he would observe improvement.

Going to Frag Garage site I can see he is only offering FM dry goods, so I can see why he would state that he is using the method.

Also on the Frag Garage site he states that he is using Calcium reactor + bulk additives…

Hmmm….

 

[OscarHaglund]

One wonders if it is reef logic or pocketbook logic driving that decision.

I think he is honest. But I also think he is uncritical towards claude and doug. I do think he will tell you what is happening in his tank and it is definitely a tank with fancy acros so we will for sure see if all spikes matter (im not sure they do).

 

[rtparty]

Absolutely. I did "bolus" dosing before it was cool. And it worked up until I started using a substantial amount. Then I invested in a doser and started seeing better results. Poor results on the "bolus" was probably partly attributable to my haphazard schedule.

But after all the countless discussions, tank threads, and demonstrative results I think we can all agree that there is more than one way to skin this cat.

I was listening to Doug Dorrat speaking on the Beyond the Reef podcast and just couldn't believe the audacity and condescension of what he was saying. In summary: "People who use kalk or any other method of dosing alk/ca are stupid. Their tanks are going to crash at some nebulous point in the future because it causes old tank syndrome as well as algae/biofilm issues. Only by dosing in my method will your corals truly develop, you will avoid old tank syndrome, and you will have no nuisance algae issues.". Seriously; the "My tanks just look prettier" line killed me.

Given the level of condescension and pseudoscience I filed this one under cult/conspiracy theory.

If you read all that, then thanks. It was cathartic.

Did you ever see the YouTube comment sections before FM had most of them turned off?

Even if the claims were true, I’d still use somebody else’s sodium bicarbonate and not give a dollar to FM simply because of how they treat people

 

[rtparty]

Out of curiosity, was that in the morning, lunch. evening or any time one remembered?

Interesting pH comment, I know one reefer that by accident dumped soda ash and he only lost some zoas, SPS did just fine. Head scratcher… I figured his tank was done for.

For me, it was when I remembered. Usually after work

 

[Reign1]

Did you ever see the YouTube comment sections before FM had most of them turned off?

Even if the claims were true, I’d still use somebody else’s sodium bicarbonate and not give a dollar to FM simply because of how they treat people

I dont know what first hand experience you have had about their treatment. I utilize the company for ICP testing and dry goods (salt , additives) and havent had any issues. I dont know if you are saying you didnt like how they were behaving in the comments on YT video??

 

[rtparty]

And yet many of us are happily enjoying improved results after adopting Bolus. Noticed that not only Reef Bum but also Frag Garage has adopted it recently. Would love to see a "scientific analysis" of the actual ingredients and their impact. While we're at it, lets include all the other products in our hobby that claim to have specific results that are largely unproveable without long and expensive experimentation.

So going back to what worked in 2005 still works. Is anyone actually surprised by this?

Dosing all the alkalinity at once was common. We were also pushing 600, 700, 800 PAR on everything. Today everyone is scared to throw more than 3-400 PAR at things. It is zero surprise that people are seeing “improved” results.

As for claims by others, Randy has highlighted many of them and some companies even admitted to and fixed their errors.

 

[rtparty]

I dont know what first hand experience you have had about their treatment. I utilize the company for ICP testing and dry goods (salt , additives) and havent had any issues. I dont know if you are saying you didnt like how they were behaving in the comments on YT video??

Correct. The way Doug and Claude talked down to anyone who asked questions. How dare anyone question their claims (that don’t follow any known science.)

 

[ReefChasers]

Can't go anywhere without hearing someone say "Bolus" right now.....

 

[Oldreefer44]

Can't go anywhere without hearing someone say "Bolus" right now.....

You should try one of our Bolus Anonymous meetings. It is not allowed there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

 

[areefer01]

And yet many of us are happily enjoying improved results after adopting Bolus.

The question comes down to the definition of what "improved results" mean and how is that quantified and/or measured?

Noticed that not only Reef Bum but also Frag Garage has adopted it recently. Would love to see a "scientific analysis" of the actual ingredients and their impact.

I do not know either of these socialites but why should I personally care what they adopt? Is this monkey see monkey do or do I need to adopt their methods to keep my reefing membership card? Or is this one of those high school clique things?

To be honest I get some like to maximize their growth or do something that they believe does. Others like to tinker. Some follow the herd while others do it because it makes them feel good.

I get your point but I don't see why it matters what people adopt or why these two are put on a pedestal.

While we're at it, lets include all the other products in our hobby that claim to have specific results that are largely unproveable without long and expensive experimentation.

This is something that has bothered me a lot about some of the things on this forum that are zeroed in on. I am pretty sure any one of us here can pick up a box be it additive, method, software, or hardware from pump to light and squint at the marketspeak written on the box. Developed for, engineered by, promotes coral growth, fish health, and more.

Reminds me a lot of vitamins and supplements.

Hope your day is well.

 

[areefer01]

The FM alk part of the bolus method has been analyzed and I reported the results in this thread : sodium bicarbonate.

Since this method has many parts, neither you nor anyone else using and loving the method can validate that the bolus aspect alone provides the improved results you see, unless you chose to not follow the method and just bolus dosed the alk additive.

Folks liking this method really need to get off defending the method and hear what folks are saying. Few folks are criticizing the overall method and no one is telling folks to not use it. Folks have successfully been bolus dosing and fast ramp up lights for a long time with success.

It's the act of adding the alk part all at once that is in question, and what benefit, if any, it provides over everything else the same except alk dosing spread out to maintain specific alk levels.

Loving - that was an interesting choice of wording.

 

[Mo.]

.
Nice to see the thread running

Their own data shows it. They have some wild assertions about about why it isn't as large as one might expect, but it's clearly a spike. Others have explained that missing part of the boost is perhaps a misunderstanding about the potency of the product.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bolus-dosing.1055204/page-23#post-12618893[/URL

[QUOTE="Garf, post: 13187619, memb...nybody- these are my observations. Cheers Mo

 

[Mo.]

As far as I understand from a limited set of data provided by users of this method or product, that seems very plausible to me.

I just do not understand why no one pushing this method has provided some rationale experiments to understand the effects instead of going to Mystery Science Theater 3000 to try to explain it.

In case they have been lost in the last few thousand posts in this thread, I'll summarize a set here.

1. Dose FM alk to a tank using this method and track alk and pH over 24 h. We are close to having this. All night measurements are not needed, but alk and pH before bolus and through the light cycle is critical. Make sure the needed dose is large enough to easily distinguish the alk boost size reproducibly.

2. Dose the same FM alk supplement into a beaker, look for the alk boost (I have that exact data; it matches sodium bicarbonate). Verify that it matches sodium bicarbonate (or not). Verify if it matches the FM calculator and/or predictions (or not).

3. Compare the alk rise in 1 and 2. Is any alk "missing" in the tank boost?

4. Repeat 1-3 with pure sodium bicarbonate.

5. Compare the pH over 24 h when dosing sodium bicarbonate in a spread out fashion to maintain the alk at the bottom of the daily alk swing obtained in 1. That is, at the alk present just before the bolus dose in 1.

6. Compare the pH over 24 h when dosing sodium bicarbonate in a spread out fashion to maintain alk at the top of the daily alk swing obtained in 1. That is, the alk maintained at the table top alk concentration in 1.

Steps 1-4 help understand the nature and reasons for the table top effect.

Steps 5 and 6 evaluate if the bolus causes a pH rise (or drop) relative to nonbolus of the same product, and if so, in what way and in what scenarios.

After seeing that data, there may be other useful experiments, but these would go a long way to clarifying the pH and alk effects of 'bolus" dosing.

It’s a lot to do, Randy. People
Generally have a hard enough time maintaining their tanks, let alone have the time or inclination to conduct scientific experiments on their tanks.

But have these experiments been done with calcium reactors or all
Of the newer dosing methods using sodium hydroxide or Carbonates to compare? I haven’t seen that data discussed, but maybe that’s my ignorance?

 

[Mo.]

Well this thread is interesting. Now Reefbum is adopting Bolus dosing and recently came out with a new video stating this . I am sure that since he is a consultant for FM that may have been a factor. He is a very experienced reefer so he has pretty sound logic.

Don’t think he would do it, if he didn’t think it had legs. Keith is one of the best SPS keepers out there.

I think Adam Frag Garage is also a consultant and trying on at least one of his tanks. He definitely has nice SPS.

I’ve tried it on my tank for a good few months now. Not seen the gradual decline in SPS that the bolus stressor doses apparently should cause. Strange one.

 

[Mo.]

One wonders if it is reef logic or pocketbook logic driving that decision.

Is Keith Broke? He seems to be a pretty honest guy with a lot of SPS colonies to lose? No? Maybe a bit more credit due?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It’s a lot to do, Randy. People
Generally have a hard enough time maintaining their tanks, let alone have the time or inclination to conduct scientific experiments on their tanks.

But have these experiments been done with calcium reactors or all
Of the newer dosing methods using sodium hydroxide or Carbonates to compare? I haven’t seen that data discussed, but maybe that’s my ignorance?

I’m not suggesting ordinary reefers should do such experiments. I’m thinking the FM folks who are proposing explanations would be much better served and be more believable if they did experiments to support their assertions.

I understand that few products actually show any sort of evidence, and that’s its own problem, but when proposing something that is very unusual, and that has been criticized by scientists for not being convincing, it seems reasonable to ask for them.

That said, all of the methods you mention have easily understood mechanisms of action. There’s no debate among scientists of how these work. Additionally, I did and published studies on the pH effect of hydroxide and carbonate and bicarbonate on seawater long before recommending sodium hydroxide. Hydroxide has also been heavily used for decades as kalkwasser.

I would expect a similar set of questions for me if I suggested something unusual.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Out of curiosity, was that in the morning, lunch. evening or any time one remembered?

Interesting pH comment, I know one reefer that by accident dumped soda ash and he only lost some zoas, SPS did just fine. Head scratcher… I figured his tank was done for.

I dumped it in whenever I remembered to. Could be AM or lunch or dinner. Sometimes daily and other times 5-10 days worth because I forgot or ran out of solution.