Bottled Bacteria, AquaBiomics. Just what's in your bottles

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Your web site says

“Develop custom strategies for adjusting your tank’s microbiome”

“These supplements can be used to adjust the microbial community in your tank.”


In what context would you advise strategies for adjusting the microbiome, and aside from avoiding known pathogens, how do you determine what the endpoint of that adjustment should be?

@AquaBiomics

Did you miss my question from a month ago?

 

[Dan_P]

@AquaBiomics

Did you miss my question from a month ago?

I am looking forwards to hearing the answer but thinking it will be something like this

1) Buy a micro biome test for your aquarium
2) Using our proprietary guidelines* and the results from the test, determine what bacteria additives to buy from us
3) Dump in additive (s)
4) Buy another tests to determine if your aquarium biome responded correctly
5) if the biome is not “balanced” based on what we tell you a balanced biome is (determined by testing a million random aquaria) go to “1)”. Repeat as necessary.

*We will never see the data nor correlations behind the advice.

 

[telegraham]

2) Using our proprietary guidelines* and the results from the test, determine what bacteria additives to buy from us
3) Dump in additive (s)

What additive(s)? If in stock, Eli only offers tested live sand/rubble. No additives.

Hey, Randy...while poking around, did you miss the "Contact us" like next to the FAQ link? [email protected]

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hey, Randy...while poking around, did you miss the "Contact us" like next to the FAQ link? [email protected]

No, I figured since he found the time to come here to blast my questions as an ignorant rant, he could also find the time to actually answer them here.

 

[telegraham]

No, I figured since he found the time to come here to blast my questions as an ignorant rant, he could also find the time to actually answer them here.

Kinda goes both ways, eh? I would dig a world where you boys found private common ground, then found a way to help us mortals.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Kinda goes both ways, eh?

Does it? Not sure what you mean goes both ways. I read his web site before posting anything here. I'd be happy to post my comments and questions there if he allowed posts. I read it again when I was accused of not knowing enough to post questions (an utterly ridiculous suggestion for a forum whose purpose is to post and get answers to questions).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Let's use a real world example of why answering such questions is important, to me and to others.

A few months ago, one Reef2reef member got an analysis from Aquabiomics and posted it in MY FORUM at Reef2Reef, asking for help in interpreting it.

Aquabiomics Results. Should i be concerned?

I finally got my aquabiomics results in. After reading about one of the families detected that seems to be in abundance, I am really hesitant to stick my hands back in the tank. The link says it is linked to leprosy and tuberculosis! :astonished-face: Should I be concerned? Here are the...

www.reef2reef.com

I gave my advice there, and I am using it here in this thread as an example of why it is desirable that I understand what Aquabiomics is doing in the advice they give so I can assist people asking in my forum how to interpret these sorts of reports.

1. First conclusion in the Aquabiomics report:

"Your sample had a higher diversity than most tanks we’ve sampled. This is the kind of diversity we aim for in our tanks."

When I was asked earlier in this thread about what "assertions" I was questioning, as if Aquabiomics never made assertions, only provides data, this is an example. That second sentence seems like an assertion about what is desirable, not data, unless it simply means what the company does in its own tanks and is not intended to claim it is desirable..

2. Balance score.

"The composition of your tank’s community is very different than most tanks we’ve tested. If you’re interested in increasing this score, please see these notes."

Following the link on how to increase the balance score:

"Because these deviations differ from one tank to another, the strategies for increasing your balance score also differ. Adjusting your balance score is accomplished by adjusting the composition of your tank’s microbiome — promoting the growth of some types, inhibiting the growth of others. Your report will include some suggestions customized for your tank."

What is the evidence that a higher balance score is desirable?

3. Community Composition

"Your sample showed differences in the relative abundance of one or more of the major microbial families, compared with the typical reef tank. Learn more about these families here or at the links below."

The subsequent links provide some suggestions of how to raise or lower the levels of some types of bacteria, such as turning off a UV sterilizer, feeding amino acids, etc. Assuming those suggestions accomplished what they are stated for, what is the evidence that such actions result in any measurable improvement in reef aquaria from the bacteria change?

So reading this persons report in detail and following all of the links, I have answered one of my questions in at least this specific case:

In what context would you advise strategies for adjusting the microbiome, and aside from avoiding known pathogens, how do you determine what the endpoint of that adjustment should be?

In this case, the answers are that the tank deviates from average and to make the tank look more like an average tank.

That then begs the most important question of all, and for which I found no answers on the Aquabiomics web site or the customer report:

What benefit is there to an individual aquarium making these changes, and what is the evidence that this benefit is attained if one makes these changes.

 

[telegraham]

Does it? Not sure what you mean goes both ways. I read his web site before posting anything here. I'd be happy to post my comments and questions there if he allowed posts. I read it again when I was accused of not knowing enough to post questions (an utterly ridiculous suggestion for a forum whose purpose is to post and get answers to questions).

Yes, Sir. I think it does. And by both ways, I’m referring to my perception of the antagonistic tone implied by your “did you miss…” comment. It’s spicy, and further bolstered by “accused of not knowing.”

I’m intrigued by your insurance on public discourse, and had DMing been an option, I would have taken that route, but here we are.

Happy Friyay!

 

[telegraham]

MY FORUM

All caps. Roger.

 

[ryshark]

I don’t need credit and I’ve shared my list of tested juices here. As for the next round, I’m sending in Special Blend, One And Only, KZ CyanoClean, and KZ Zeobak tomorrow.

Buy some tests and jump on in!

How were the Zeobak results? I feel like KZ is a quality brand, even though we don’t know what’s in the blue bottles. Would be interesting to see the results.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

All caps. Roger.

Perhaps you misunderstand again. I am not meaning all of Reef2Reef, I mean my chemistry forum. Yes, I capped it because did not want anyone missing that since I was accused earlier in this thread of butting in where I was not wanted. I have to answer questions about this method, and the better info I can get, the better I can answer folks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, Sir. I think it does. And by both ways, I’m referring to my perception of the antagonistic tone implied by your “did you miss…” comment. It’s spicy, and further bolstered by “accused of not knowing.”

I’m intrigued by your insurance on public discourse, and had DMing been an option, I would have taken that route, but here we are.

Happy Friyay!

He's been answering other questions at Reef2Reef since I posted it. But not mine. Thus I assume he missed it or chose to not answer.

I certainly am used to antagonism from people who do not agree with me. It's not the antagonism I am concerned about, it's getting answers (or in this case, not).

 

[brandon429]

He's quite active on HF's site so here is the request to inform us here

Eli please respond here in Randy's chem forum discussion about AB services

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bottled-bacteria-aquabiomics-just-whats-in-your-bottles.1068182/page-14 we want to continue learning about microbiology, please answer there. I know u have been busy and may not have been at reef2reef lately, but the top microbiologists on rtr are discussing...

humble.fish

 

[areefer01]

He's been answering other questions at Reef2Reef since I posted it. But not mine. Thus I assume he missed it or chose to not answer.

Maybe it is bedside manners?

 

[telegraham]

How were the Zeobak results? I feel like KZ is a quality brand, even though we don’t know what’s in the blue bottles. Would be interesting to see the results.

I should have results soon.

 

[telegraham]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Maybe here would be better?

Thread 'DNA Testing for the Reef Tank - Ask me anything'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dna-testing-for-the-reef-tank-ask-me-anything.1073010/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As an analogy of why I'd be concerned about suggesting folks make changes without evidence that those changes will truly be useful, the suggestions by many ICP companies are a perfect example.

Many suggest that a trace element above or below some range are dangerously high or low.
Many suggest a trace element with no known biological role in any organisms should be maintained.

Many suggest changes or sell products to make those changes.

Sometimes they are useful and appropriate, and sometimes they are not.

I rail against those all the time, asking for evidence. Why would bacteria be different?

 

[telegraham]

Perhaps you misunderstand again. I am not meaning all of Reef2Reef, I mean my chemistry forum. Yes, I capped it because did not want anyone missing that since I was accused earlier in this thread of butting in where I was not wanted. I have to answer questions about this method, and the better info I can get, the better I can answer folks.

Nope. I didn’t misunderstand.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley Maybe here would be better?

Thread 'DNA Testing for the Reef Tank - Ask me anything'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/dna-testing-for-the-reef-tank-ask-me-anything.1073010/

Perfect, I didn't post all the background discussion, just the most pertinent question I have:

Your reports sometimes make suggestions how one can change the bacterial types in a reef tank to look more like what you see in typical/average reef tanks. Not because of pathogens or known problems, but simply from deviating from average. Such changes including removing a UV, dosing amino acids, etc.

What benefit is there to an individual aquarium making these changes that are a consequence of the bacteria change, and what is the evidence that this benefit is attained if one makes these changes?

Some folks get the reports and do not seem to know what to do with them. Some changes are suggested, but it's not clear what they should expect to observe if those changes are made.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nope. I didn’t misunderstand.

Good, then you now understand also why I capped it: I was accused of butting into matters that did not concern me, and yet, they obviously do concern me and that capped text explains why.